CCharger
The Rowdy One  
Posts 2693
Registered 7-21-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: Obtuse
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 06:27 PM |
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Controversial Ricochet vs. Will Ospreay Match
Recently a match during the Best of the Super Juniors Tournament in New Japan has garnered a lot of *ahem* attention after some gifs of the match made
it stateside.
Some people hated it and their argument boiled down to "It's wrestling, not gymnastics." and "Where's the ring psychology?
There's no story being told."
Some people loved it and their argument boiled down to "It's a different style most Americans aren't used to." and "That was pure
athleticism on display."
I'm conflicted on the whole thing. I can see both sides. The one major criticism I have is that there were too many moves that should have been
finishes that guys kicked out of or no-sold. Nevertheless, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't entertained.
I figured you guys are the best when it comes to HOT TAKEZ on wrestling, so the full match is linked down below.
Have at it, bOOardsters.
http://wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2016/0531/612248/new-japan-pro-wrestling-posts-full-controversial-ricochet-vs/
When it Reigns, it bores.
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drmuerto
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1424
Registered 11-17-2005 Location Charlotte, NC Member Is Offline Mood: PhDeceased
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 07:32 PM |
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I just watched the match (which is now on YouTube and I also had some mixed feelings about it, although
ultimately I was disappointed with the match.
There's no doubt there were a lot of cool acrobatic sequences going on here. I've been a fan of flippy shit ever since the hey day of
WCW's cruiser weight division, but it wasn't clear to me why any of this was happening in this match. Perhaps this is a case where the
context announcers can provide would have helped. As I was watching I kept trying to figure out what the story here was, and it never clicked for
me.
Neither of them seemed very interested in winning the match until about the last 4 minutes. Ricochet was being sort of a heel, but not quite. And it
wasn't quite like these were two long-time allies who were trying to one-up each other, since neither one was taunting or otherwise expressing
self-satisfaction with getting the best of the other gut in a sequence. It just seemed like they were into laying out roughly equivalent sequences for
the sake of showing off the (admittedly) really cool moves and counter-moves they'd come up with.
Two parts stood out in that regard. First, after that (again really cool) set of moves that ended with them striking a superhero pose, it only took a
quick kick an da fore-arm shot for Osprey to suddenly be totally at the mercy of Ricochet for a series of corner moves. In fact, all of the
transitions were of that sort with not a whole lot of consequences for it. Ricochet worked Ospery's back a bit, but it never impacted what the
latter could do in the ring. Second, at the beginning of the go home section Ricochet took two kicks to the head in quick sequence and after a
perfunctory kick out at two was back on his feet setting himself up for yet another attack of the ropes from Osprey. It made it seem like the kicks
meant nothing, and made the feed into the move seem convoluted.
There was a lot of athleticism on display here, but somehow it felt more like it was in the register of a dance battle than a wrestling match in the
context of a tournament that is worth winning. Somehow, it seemed more like a display of athletics than a competition or a fight, and while we all
know that wrestling isn't really a fight it's still weird when the fight element gets so lost.
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Paddlefoot
Rocco Rock of Jabroni
Posts 5531
Registered 1-19-2008 Location in my safe space, damn you! Member Is Offline Mood: obsolete aryan
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 08:58 PM |
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I can see why the purists are dismissive because that kind of defined the term "flippy shit". Very athletic and well choreographed but that was as
far away from how compelling a good Ultimate-X or old-school WCW cruiserweight match could be. It had the flow but it just didn't have any heart
to it.
You are a bastard. A daughter-fucking wildling bastard.
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lz4005
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1328
Registered 11-12-2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Oolitic
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 10:07 PM |
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That Osprey is a potty mouth.
Check the "pip pip cheerio mother fucker" at 11:35.
The crowd liked it. That was as loud as I've heard a Japanese audience.
You play to the room.
To me the only problem was around the 15 to 18 mark where they no-sold their own damage in a way that pulled me out of the match a bit, but other than
that it was very enjoyable to watch. Really dug the finisher.
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Count Zero
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1118
Registered 1-29-2013 Location Canada East Member Is Offline Mood: splitting brandache
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 11:11 PM |
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I liked that, a lot. Even though I'm a fan of the flippy-floppy, I can see flaws in the match.. The "restholds", while creative, were more
like "look at this pose! Okay, now we release, and do the next one!" even more than some of the counters/reversals. There was no intent to cause
'submission' with most of them -- at least a kick to the head looks like it hurts (until you start no-selling it).
Originally posted by williamssl
"That hasn't stopped us from doing this shit before!"
"Checkmate, sir. Checkmate"
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janerd75
The Rowdy One
Posts 2377
Registered 1-28-2013 Location Bix Nood Avenue Member Is Offline Mood: Mah name is TOBY!!!
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| posted on 5-31-2016 at 11:14 PM |
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Pretty much with everybody else here. One one hand my inner Cornette said, "Motherfuck, this is wrestling, this ain't the Serk de Solay,
goddamnit! Next you'll have fukken Joey Ryan pole vaulting into the ring on his dick and pirouette his way into this chop socky
clusterfuck...". On the other hand, I could see a lot of cruisers integrating some of those moves into their moveset in betwixt some regular
ol' dropkicks and restholds to mellow things out a bit.
Dunno, but Shinsuke vs. Zayn is my recent highwater mark for the flippitydippity-esque stuff that also integrates moves that look like they would
actually hurt in the real world.
�If only Africa had more mosquito nets, then every year we could save millions of mosquitoes from dying needlessly of A.I.D.S.� - Jimmy Carr
As per Count Zero's lovely transciption:
Jericho: "You better watch it."
Owens: "Yeah? Watch what?"
Jericho: "...It."
Evil Canadians 4 Life!
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CamstunPWG187
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1430
Registered 5-2-2010 Location Harbin, China Member Is Offline Mood: Barbeque
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| posted on 6-1-2016 at 06:12 PM |
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That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.
Fuck whatever "story" you're trying to look for here. That was two awesome flippy dudes doing some of the best flippy shit the business has
ever seen, and it ruled.
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janerd75
The Rowdy One
Posts 2377
Registered 1-28-2013 Location Bix Nood Avenue Member Is Offline Mood: Mah name is TOBY!!!
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| posted on 6-1-2016 at 08:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.
Fuck whatever "story" you're trying to look for here. That was two awesome flippy dudes doing some of the best flippy shit the business has
ever seen, and it ruled.
If the WWE could somehow integrate that style on the "new" Smackdown in a kind of cruiser division like WCW used to have in the glory days of guys
like La Parka, Juventud Guerrera, and Psychosis then yeah I could forego that dastardly "story" business. Keep Raw the more "realistic" show and
let Smackdown bring on more fantastical guys with weird gimmicks and/or styles.
I think the acceptable cure for the WWE having no real competition for the past 16 years, or ever agayn really, would be for them to finally have Raw
and SD be essentially two seemingly distinct entities. Raw gets to be Raw, SD the new WCW, and NXT the new ECW. The more fantastical styles from
around the world can filter up through NXT/SD to see how well they work with regular audiences.
�If only Africa had more mosquito nets, then every year we could save millions of mosquitoes from dying needlessly of A.I.D.S.� - Jimmy Carr
As per Count Zero's lovely transciption:
Jericho: "You better watch it."
Owens: "Yeah? Watch what?"
Jericho: "...It."
Evil Canadians 4 Life!
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BBMN
HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! ! 
Posts 2167
Registered 6-27-2007 Location tumblr Member Is Offline Mood: SJW
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| posted on 6-1-2016 at 08:32 PM |
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Reminded me of Avatar - great visually speaking, but lacking in heart and depth.
The modified Brock Lock that was busted out of nowhere, and quickly abandoned actually kinda pissed me off.
I give this match 87 out of a 100 Jushin Thunder Ligers.
"Put the chicken wings down n come to Jihad bro."
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Columbo
Showstopper 
Posts 929
Registered 11-2-2004 Location @columbo527 Member Is Offline Mood: Drug Baseballs
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| posted on 6-1-2016 at 11:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.
Cams right that match was pretty fucking amazing. He's also right that I would have liked it better with WWE's presentation, imagine that
in Chicago, Philly, or NYC on a ppv the atmosphere would have been nuts.
p.s. LOLTNA for not locking down Ospreay when they had the chance.
[Edited on 6-1-2016 by Columbo]
"The North Cafeteria, named after Admiral William North, is located in the western portion of East Hall, gateway to the western half of North Hall,
which is named, not after William North, but for its position above the South Wall. It is the most contested and confusing battlefield on Greendale�s
campus, next to the English Memorial Spanish Center, named after English Memorial, a Portuguese sailor that discovered Greendale while looking for a
fountain that cured syphilis."
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The Hitcher
Fella
Posts 349
Registered 12-25-2008 Location Manchester, UK Member Is Offline Mood: YeahOh!
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 03:56 AM |
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So why's this attracting so much controversy? Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets? It's a style like anything else and
that's about the best "flippy shit" match I've seen in a while.
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BBMN
HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! !
Posts 2167
Registered 6-27-2007 Location tumblr Member Is Offline Mood: SJW
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 04:58 AM |
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I don't think there's really much controversy based upon the likes vs dislikes on YouTube... it's pretty well liked.
I think there's just a small but vocal group of fans that think it was good but not great, for things related to inconsistent selling, which in
turn creates a kind of oddly told story...
I mean, at the 14:30 mark, dude hits a modified F-U onto the apron, and what does he get for this devastating move? Reverse Frankensteined on the
outside like six seconds later. Calm down already with that shit. Basically it's a wonderfully executed match, but the layout of the match
itself is "let's just do like all our moves in a row!"
edit - I mean really now, he takes a high level finishing move from a high level guy in Cena (fuck off, he's beyond over and the F-U has
finished fucking everyone), modifies it to an apron spot, and it results in him getting hit with an even more insane move seconds later. If these guys
wrote movies instead of matches, they would write Fast & Furious vs Transformers.
[Edited on 6-3-2016 by BBMN]
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CamstunPWG187
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1430
Registered 5-2-2010 Location Harbin, China Member Is Offline Mood: Barbeque
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 05:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets?
Crusty vets have found out in recent years that they can still stay relevant with the IWC by having crusty vet mentality about highly-praised athletic
matches.
I'm glad guys like Regal say fuck all and stand up for these kind of guys and the matches they have. Regal's one of the most scientific
mat techs in the game and even he understands the purpose of these types of matches.
Shelton said something I liked, as well: "If everyone wrestled the same style of match, wrestling would die.", or something like that.
No heart? I say the caliber of wrestling they displayed mixed with how crisp and perfect everything looked showed PLENTY of that. I'm glad
those two are so good at their craft that they can execute a match like that so flawlessly. THAT shows heart, and dedication, to their craft and love
for the business. Ricochet has shown me numerous times that he can tell a "story" in there (his series with El Generico in PWG, for a perfect
example), so I don't need to see him do that in every match. I know he's capable of doing it, already.
But why did there need to be a story in that match? Could there have been? Sure, but it's also a round robin-style tournament show, so
aren't they just exhibitions? Pro wrestling is so subjective, and people need to understand these matches have their place on the card. The
crowd was going apeshit for a Japanese crowd and they even chanted 'This is awesome', which is the first time I have heard that from the
Japanese crowd. I say cheers to those two.
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Count Zero
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1118
Registered 1-29-2013 Location Canada East Member Is Offline Mood: splitting brandache
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 07:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BBMN
Fast & Furious vs Transformers.
98 minutes of lens flares and explosions, co-starring The Rock and Shia LaBeouf????
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by Count Zero]
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royberto
And I am AWESOME
Posts 163
Registered 2-27-2014 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 12:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
quote:
Originally posted by BBMN
Fast & Furious vs Transformers.
98 minutes of lens flares and explosions, co-starring The Rock and Shia LaBeouf????
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by Count Zero]
A Michael Bay Film.
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royberto
And I am AWESOME
Posts 163
Registered 2-27-2014 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 12:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
quote:
Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets?
Crusty vets have found out in recent years that they can still stay relevant with the IWC by having crusty vet mentality about highly-praised athletic
matches.
I'm glad guys like Regal say fuck all and stand up for these kind of guys and the matches they have. Regal's one of the most scientific
mat techs in the game and even he understands the purpose of these types of matches.
Shelton said something I liked, as well: "If everyone wrestled the same style of match, wrestling would die.", or something like that.
No heart? I say the caliber of wrestling they displayed mixed with how crisp and perfect everything looked showed PLENTY of that. I'm glad
those two are so good at their craft that they can execute a match like that so flawlessly. THAT shows heart, and dedication, to their craft and love
for the business. Ricochet has shown me numerous times that he can tell a "story" in there (his series with El Generico in PWG, for a perfect
example), so I don't need to see him do that in every match. I know he's capable of doing it, already.
But why did there need to be a story in that match? Could there have been? Sure, but it's also a round robin-style tournament show, so
aren't they just exhibitions? Pro wrestling is so subjective, and people need to understand these matches have their place on the card. The
crowd was going apeshit for a Japanese crowd and they even chanted 'This is awesome', which is the first time I have heard that from the
Japanese crowd. I say cheers to those two.
So, we are not allowed to dislike it because the fans in the audience liked it? Child please.
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CamstunPWG187
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1430
Registered 5-2-2010 Location Harbin, China Member Is Offline Mood: Barbeque
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 03:29 PM |
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Congratulations on taking what I wrote, imagining that I meant something other than what I wrote, and then responding to your imagination.
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CM Crunk
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1105
Registered 7-20-2011 Location The Coachella Valley, California Member Is OnlineMood: Tres Comas
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 09:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
Congratulations on taking what I wrote, imagining that I meant something other than what I wrote, and then responding to your imagination.
That honestly has to be the worst recipe for a 5-alarm vegan chili that I've ever read, Cam. Hang your head in shame.
You are the vulgarian, you fuck!
Follow my shallow rambling witticisms @WatkinsAGoGo on The Twatters
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Paddlefoot
Rocco Rock of Jabroni
Posts 5531
Registered 1-19-2008 Location in my safe space, damn you! Member Is Offline Mood: obsolete aryan
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 09:22 PM |
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I still say Vader was right, and like BBMN said the non-selling of moves that would result in a pinfall in any other wrestling match was pretty
atrocious. A lot of the no-sells were as dumb as Rock doing it with the Stone Cold Stunner or what HBK did during the match with Hogan. Athletic, yes.
Talented, yes. Fun, yes. Something I want to see repeated on a regular basis on RAW, SD, or PPV's? No. Like all gymnastics or tumbling
exhibitions, which is what that match really was, it's OK every once in a while but I have no need of it more often than that. Japanese fans are
cool and all but I see no reason to believe that they're the be-all-end-all authority on what makes a match good than any other fan base in the
history of Our Sport has ever been.
You are a bastard. A daughter-fucking wildling bastard.
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CCharger
The Rowdy One
Posts 2693
Registered 7-21-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: Obtuse
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 10:17 PM |
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For me, I enjoy suspending disbelief for a bit and pretend wrestling is an actual fight.
When you take a reverse hurricanrana from the apron to the floor and then barely lay there before moving on to your next high spot, it ruins the
illusion for me.
It's like having sex with a high end prostitute only for her to take a phone call from her pimp in the middle of her orgasm.
Sell the match like it's a real fight and you are trying to win and/or hurt your opponent. Sell the moves your opponent gives you as
realistically as possible. Some of these guys need to go back and watch Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard to see how to tell a compelling story, hold the
fans in the palm of your hand, AND make it look like they are fucking each other up.
It doesn't have to be either/or.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CCharger]
When it Reigns, it bores.
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G. Jonah Jameson
Showstopper
Posts 946
Registered 12-28-2010 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 11:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
It's like having sex with a high end prostitute only for her to take a phone call from her pimp in the middle of her orgasm.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CCharger]
This is the best comparison to anything ever.
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BBMN
HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! !
Posts 2167
Registered 6-27-2007 Location tumblr Member Is Offline Mood: SJW
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 05:43 PM |
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And I don't want to come off as some super elitist smart fan that only loves a handful of matches. I know there's been some spotfests in
the past that I would've said "THIS IS AWESOME" on the first viewing. But as I watch wrestling less and less, I appreciate the craft more and
more. A match can be filled to the brim with flippy shit and highspots, but it at least has to make sense. Eating a finisher on the apron and being
able to hit an even more brutal move seconds later is something that is reserved for the biggest beasts in the industry. Like Hogan hulking up and no
selling anything that hit him. Or Lesnar just being the genetic freakshow. Or Taker being this undead zombie that won't stay down.
But it's not for some dude that is less than 6' and less than 200lbs. Just no.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to renew my subscription to AARP.
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CamstunPWG187
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1430
Registered 5-2-2010 Location Harbin, China Member Is Offline Mood: Barbeque
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 08:37 PM |
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Yeah, but at the same time, consider the hardcore indy fans such as myself who have been following guys like Ricochet for nearly a decade in a
plethora of promotions, and they aren't just "some guy under 6'0" to us. We have watched guys like him grow from being a sloppy flippy
guy with potential to a guy we have seen completely define high-flying.
A small minority, but still.... To those fans in attendance in Japan, Ricochet hasn't just been "some guy" since 2010, and Ospreay has been
there long enough to have made them realize that he's on the rise.
Not saying you're wrong, just saying that chances are, if you're watching that match, you probably know who Ricochet is and have heard
whispers of Ospreay. Not everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that most people watching night 6 of a Japanese wrestling promotion's
tourney has a hunch as to who they are.
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The Hitcher
Fella
Posts 349
Registered 12-25-2008 Location Manchester, UK Member Is Offline Mood: YeahOh!
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 09:15 PM |
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quote:
Yeah, but at the same time, consider the hardcore indy fans such as myself who have been following guys like Ricochet for nearly a decade in a
plethora of promotions, and they aren't just "some guy under 6'0" to us. We have watched guys like him grow from being a sloppy flippy
guy with potential to a guy we have seen completely define high-flying.
A small minority, but still.... To those fans in attendance in Japan, Ricochet hasn't just been "some guy" since 2010, and Ospreay has been
there long enough to have made them realize that he's on the rise.
Not saying you're wrong, just saying that chances are, if you're watching that match, you probably know who Ricochet is and have heard
whispers of Ospreay. Not everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that most people watching night 6 of a Japanese wrestling promotion's tourney
has a hunch as to who they are.
Just as a counterpoint to the above: I had little to no idea who either of them were before I watched that match and still enjoyed it. Probably
because it's different to what I'm used to.
I'd say it was "controversial" if this was "the thing" in wrestling at the moment but it isn't so, beyond people calling it "match of
the year" which is always highly subjective, it's just different strokes for different folks being blown up because internet.
[Edited on 6-3-2016 by The Hitcher]
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lz4005
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1328
Registered 11-12-2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Oolitic
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 10:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just as a counterpoint to the above: I had little to no idea who either of them were before I watched that match and still enjoyed it. Probably
because it's different to what I'm used to.
I don't know if it helps, but Ricochet is Prince Puma in Lucha Underground.
I still don't get why people are so upset about it. Every match has some combination of technical moves and selling/storytelling. And everyone
has a different combination of the two that they prefer.
This one was off the charts on one, at the expense of the other. A slightly different mix might have been "better", but in the grand scheme of
things it was just a wrestling match. What difference does it make really?
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