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Author: Subject: Face vs. Face, the way to go?
Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 09:24 AM Edit Post
Mod - I am sorry for my comments regarding American sports, I was pretty pissed off last night with BFG's needless behaviour and was writing in a somewhat vitriolic mode. However, it IS news to me that American sports do have a face/ heel element.

I shall address the actual wrestling topics that have been discussed later (by editing this post right here)

[Edited on 11/8/2004 by Parvini]





"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" - John Milton

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Gobshite
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:54 PM Edit Post
Not that Im ganging up on you Parvini, but come on, theres no heels in English Sports?

have you EVER been to a Manchester United away game? They are clearly the heels there...

Unless theyre at home. Man Utd (actually, teams in general) = Hart Foundation, 1997.

Same goes for everything else I can think of.

Tennis: Wimbledon? Henman is the hugely over face, everyone else playing him is heel.

Football / Rugby: Away team = Heels.

I dont pay £400 a year to sit at Villa Park every other week and cheer FOR Arsenal, just because they play well.

youre wrong Parvini. Face vs Face is an interesting idea, and what made ROH interesting at the start... but now even they generally use the heel vs face mould.

Its the way of the world mate.






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masterofpigeons
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 02:49 PM Edit Post
I kind of like the idea of not having a set good guy, and not having a set bad guy. One of the appeals of wrestling to me is the wide appeal of characters, and sometimes, some of those characters appeal to some people more than others. For example, a character like Raven would have trouble gaining a mass mainstream appeal, but is very popular with a portion of the audience. Raven has his fans, and they'll probably cheer him one way or another - face or heel.

On the other hand, you've got someone like The Rock who can achieve that mainstream appeal, and he'll be liked by most people most of the time. So if we'd have a Raven vs The Rock match, The Rock would probably get overwhelming cheers - but he wouldn't get all of them. Raven would most likely get the support of a vocal minority in most arenas.

Now if someone constructed a Raven vs Rock feud, it'd be possible for both guys to "cheat" to win certain matches - both have done it in the past and are likely to do it again. What makes it interesting is that if both characters are played up as 'persons' and not as just a heel or a face, then there's a genuine ambiguity in the feud and who's going to win. The Rock will still probably be cheered most, and Raven probably will get more boos, but by allowing both wrestlers to exist outside of the traditional heel/face structure, there's a wider array of possibilities in the storytelling department. Jericho/Edge on Raw did this pretty well: Jericho gets more cheers, even though he cheats. But we know that Edge has done the same thing in the past (just a few weeks ago against Orton). Both guys get their cheers, and they're allowed to exist as their own characters, not just as part of the heel/face structure.

I understand that this probably all falls into the shades of gray idea, but I think it would make for more interesting stories inside the ring. The traditional heel/face scenario does lead to us having a good idea whenever a PPV comes around of how it's going to end. I'm not saying get rid of the idea of one wrestler being more popular/getting more cheers than the other... but I would say that wrestling shouldn't guide itself and its stories by the popularity meter. It could make things more interesting.

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microplay_24
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 03:04 PM Edit Post
My two cents:

No matter how you look at it, there are heels/faces in all of sports. It is probably rare to see a person cheering for two teams in an arena, because as long as their competing, the person will cheer for one of them, and thatís who THEY want.

The whole idea of sports has been competition since day one.ÖAnd since it is competition, fans will side with one side. Itís the same in every sport. I donít think anyone would actually cheer two teams playing in the same field, with equal reason to cheer each, or else what would be the fun in that?? Even if a fan has no clue about two teams playing a baseball game, I am pretty sure they will side with one of them regardless, whatever the reason may be.

Taking examples of face/face encounters in wrestling:

Warrior/Hogan Ė This match had crowds divided nearly 50/50, and the commentators even made it their #1 priority to get this message across. Go back and watch WMVI, and youíll know what Iím, talking about. Yes, there was technically no bad guy here, but the fans soley sided with who they wanted, and thatís the whole point.

Bret/Bulldog Ė Even in this match, the fans were clearly behind the Bulldog in Wimbley Stadium. I think that was the whole idea to even have the face/face encounter here in the first place, because Vince knew the home crowd would have sided with Bulldog. Bret nearly even teased a heel turn in the end, and it all added to the drama of the match.

Piper/Bret Ė Their wrestlemania 8 matchup was built up with steam behind these two, so that it wasnít just a face/face matchup. Piper teases a heel turn in the end even, in order to get the drama into the match.

The whole point is, there will always be faces/heels in wrestling, and that has always been the idea since day one. And even if two guys are faces, fans will certainly back whoever they chose. It has always been that way.

And itís the same way in every sport.

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Atrains_Caboose
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 07:40 PM Edit Post
Hey Parvani, I guess we are in the minority.

I have actually thought of this before. I personally like the idea of face v face. Especially if I am a fan of both wrestlers (ie. Jericho v. Edge). I had no idea who to cheer for and as such, for me, it was a great match. I didn't care who won because in my eyes, I liked both of them. There was no way for me to leave unhappy. Unlike watching anyone vs. heelish Big show. When he wins, I am sad .. because .. well .. he sucks.

However, I will add that this format should NOT be used all the time. As an added attraction? Yes. All the time? No.

My half a cent ..





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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 09:27 PM Edit Post
Masterofpigeons is in-fact the only person who has sort of understood the basic premise of what I am suggesting. The fans can basically choose to cheer who they want and the commentators don't try to get any one over as a face or as a heel.

This IS more like real sports becasue in real sports yes, people take sides, of course they do, I never sadi they didn't - BUT they don't take sides because they think the other team is EVIL or that they team or person they are supporting in a moral force of GOOD do they? There are basically 2 sorts of sports fans:

1. The fan who supports a team just because they are good - say an 11 year old boy from Somerset who supports Manchester United.

2. The fan who supports a team in their locale or area - say, the 20 000 or so people who flock to West Brom on a rainy saturday just to see them get beaten.

The problem we have here is that the analogy between real sports and the world of wrestling just doesn't translate. Whichever way you look at it, it just doesn't.

Real sports has unbiased commentry, and its hype is based around those that are the best and those that competing for your particualr country (eg. Tim Henman for UK in Tennis).

You can't call Tim Henman a "face" and someone like Philipouses a "heel" - it's absurd.

So what you have in sports is a situation where people generally support who they want or get behind a team in their own area or behind their country. People don't actually boo Manchester United or Arsenal because they are "heels", they do it because either a) thier club has a grudge (or a match) with them or b) they are envious of their success. They don't boo them because they are guilty of villianous deeds as they would boo my friend Ted Dibiase here.

All I'm saying is why can't wrestling be the same?

THAT is what I've been trying to say - hope this is now clear to all.

[Edited on 11/8/2004 by Parvini]





"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" - John Milton

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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 10:22 PM Edit Post
First thing first, sorry Mod Prime, but he just doesn't get it: PRO-WRESTLING IS NOT A REAL SPORT...IT'S SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT YOU FUCKING SMARKY BASTARD!!!

AriestheRam all ready mentioned the fan who likes guys like Joe Sakic, Ed McCaffery, Barry Sanders, Cal Ripken Jr., Wayne Gretzky because the are GOOD guys. In addition to that, people who have mentioneds the Yankees and/or Redsox as being EVIL would include myself, ModSquad, and LuckyLopez. I know you read where I said fuck you, so I'm assuming you can read. If so, why do you continue to just deny that there are not heels and faces in sports?

Anyways, let's look at what you said in your first post:

*What if the WWE went with a face/ face format?

*This idea would involve breaking up the traditional heel/ face dichotomy of wrestling to introduce a new dynamic more akin to real sports.

*A divided crowd, in my opinion, is the more natural state for a crowd to be in. And the situation we have now is surreal to say the least.

*If played right this could take wrestling into brave new realms, the WWE could achieve possibilities that have, as yet, only been glimpsed at in the sparkle of Vince's money-making eye.

Complete crap writen with a smarky attitude. But there was more, oh so much painfully more. People tried telling you to go watch UFC if you don't want the entertainment of sports entertainment. People tried to mention how good commentating could help focus on the sport element. Hell, I even mentioned how sometimes you'll get a broadcastor say he hates a real athelete after a dirty play. Heck, I've even seen SOCCER highlights where the broadcastor has called a player getting a yellow card evil! And promoter did a wonderfull stand up job of saying why it's best to save face vs face as a special attraction and not the norm.

But you refuse to see any other view but your own. So I have two pictures for you, hopefully you'll get the message:





Now that I've done that, I'd suggest that this thread be closed and that we all go to 2004babe.wwe.com and vote for Trish Stratus!!! If you don't the dolphins will cry!!!








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LuckyLopez
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 11:00 PM Edit Post
Hey, hey, hey. I never said the Yankees were evil. Look at the avatar, baby. I said there was good and evil in Yankees/Red Sox but I never said who was what.

And am I the only one who thinks that the picture of Trish Stratus with a dolphin some sort of perversion of innocence? It totally creeps me out.





And yeah, ok. The Yankees are evil.

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LuckyLopez
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 01:00 AM Edit Post
You know what's weird? I think Jeb just accurately explained to me why I find the first 6 months of ROH so much less interesting than anything that followed... even despite high quality matches.
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promoter2003
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 02:19 AM Edit Post
Gotta admit this is the best post I have ever seen from Jeb.
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mark markham
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:38 AM Edit Post
the jeb post is worth reading even if it looks overly long, now go back and read it.
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Gobshite
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 12:27 PM Edit Post
Basically, Parvini wants the NWL - National Wrestling League.

And it wont happen.

sorry dude.






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Parvini
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 06:47 PM Edit Post
Ok, let's do this.

Right, no matter how abusive you want to be, what you want to call me, how forcefully you put it... it doesn't change the fact that wrestling IS the only sport with a heel/ face dynamic.

Yes, in real sports you do get people who cheer for one team and boo for their opponenets, you do get certain people who are more hated than others and some who are more loved but they are not heels and faces. It's true that many people WOULD love to spit in the faces of Manchester Utd. players but it's also true that they happen to be one of the highest supported clubs in the world. You see, you have a CHOICE there, a choice to make about whether you love or hate Manchester United. They are not universally loved or hated as faces and heels are (in theory).

In wrestling, the company moves from stadium to stadium, arena to arena and every crowd is meant to have the same reactions. Everyone is supposed to cheer for one guy and boo the other one - don't tell me that is natural, it's not natural is it? If that is natural it is news to me.

You can laugh all you want at the view that commentry is not biased, but to my experience it is not. I am a fan of many sports besides wrestling and here in the UK the commentators are ALWAYS fully impartial. The only time where there is a slight bias is when England are in the World Cup or when Tim Henman is playing tennis at Wimbledon or whatever. But that's a national thing isn't it. You'd NEVER get a commentator openly supporting say Everton or Arsenal during a match - it just doesn't happen. I don't know if things are different in America - I've never seen a game of baseball or American Football in my life - but I assume they are pretty much the same as that. You can't have biased commentry in an official broadcast surely. You just can't. So laugh away JLund, laugh all you want, but it is a fact that I am right here.

Ok, let's move onto to wrestling itself.

The problem I think we have here is one of semiotics. The phrase face/ face is a bit misleading.

I am talking about a federation which had no clearly defined faces or heels, a federation made up of tweeners if you will. This would change nothing of the character or attitude of wrestling in itself.

They could very easily do it right now by acknowledging Triple H's fans or Kurt Angle's fans and not talking about them as disgraceful or terrible men all the time. It would only be a subtle shift you understand? The NWA// WCW sort of did this in the early 1990s and late 80s when nobody would really question the ethics of a heel. The commentry on the Ric Flair DVD is testament enough to this but also look at alot of Jim Ross's work from 1989-92. The WWE/ F never had a commentator like that. The dichotomy in the box was always face play-by-play/ colour heel. In WCW Solie and Ross acted like legit sports commentators and although there were faces and heels it wasn't as marked or explicit as it was in WWF. The Four Horsemen, for example, were pushed not only as bad ass heels but as awesome wrestlers. Flair's in-ring ability was always the most important thing and came first, if we compare that to his 1992/3 WWF run that was not always the case.

I'm not saying we should eradicate character just that the fans should be given the freedom to cheer who they want as they can in any other sports. That would afford a freedom of sorts to the writers wouldn't it.

I think everybody accepts that there needs to be a "BIG change", as the recent thread demonstrates, I merely offered one suggestion. Ok - the idea was rough around the edges but the basis of what I'm saying remains the same. Wrestling would be more exciting and less predictable if the emphasis on pushing people AS faces or heels was lost. The character can essentailly stay the same but the focus on getting people to boo or cheer in my view is a nonsense now. If everyone KNOWS that they are being manipulated to cheer one way or another they are mor inclined not to do as they are told. More and more they don't cheer the "face", as Edge is finding right now.

Do you understand what I am saying? Don't change the characterization or the the attitude of the wrestlers, OR their moral outlooks - but change the way they are marketed, change the commentry, change the emphasis and focus from whether they are good or bad people to their in-ring ability and to the actual story-lines they ar involved with. You dig?

Maybe this format shouldn't completely over take the old one but it should shift that way a bit. If kayfabe IS dead, as many believe it to be, shouldn't the WWE start acting accordingly?

I hope you understand what I am suggesting now, only time will tell if you do.

[Edited on 12/8/2004 by Parvini]





"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" - John Milton

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stewieisgood
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 06:59 PM Edit Post
Have you even read the other posts, or do you simply skim to see if they agree with you?
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:13 PM Edit Post
You know, I think this has to be said again, so here it goes: wrestling is SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT.

Because it is sports entertainment, the idea of face/heel is necessary. It helps tell storylines, build personas and characters, and makes the sport what it actually is. How hard is it to understand that??

geezÖ

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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:16 PM Edit Post
WILL YOU PLEASE FUCKING READ WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY!!!

The big change thread clearly has people saying that no big change is needed!!! We have pretty much all said that sports do have faces and heels. and once again: THIS IS SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT YOU MOTHER FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!!!

And yes...I am trying to offend you by using words that are not too nice. Maybe then you will take your fucking sad self and your crappy ideas and go away untill you learn how to exsist on the boards. People don't like me, but I seem to be able to post here without causing the shit you do.

And I think by this point you are just being the stupidest moronic cunt rag these boards have ever seen. Seriously, there is are were some dumb fucks here (I know, I'm one of them) but they never tried as hard as you!

Seriously, why are you trying this hard to piss us off? Shit, man this is a place where we ogle Trish Stratus fine tits and ass. Seriously, how big of a cocksucking dimwitted fool must you be to make Jeb Lund take that much effort to discount what you have to say??? Can't you just accept that we don't agree and move on?

Oh, and could a MOD please close this thread?


[Edited on 8-12-2004 by bigfatgoalie]






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LuckyLopez
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:24 PM Edit Post
You know, Parvini... I was sorta on your side earlier. But you're making it real hard.

quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
You'd NEVER get a commentator openly supporting say Everton or Arsenal during a match - it just doesn't happen. I don't know if things are different in America - I've never seen a game of baseball or American Football in my life - but I assume they are pretty much the same as that. You can't have biased commentry in an official broadcast surely. You just can't. So laugh away JLund, laugh all you want, but it is a fact that I am right here.


Somewhere in this whole thing you have to swallow your pride and defer to people who know what they're talking about. You are WRONG. Perhaps English sports commentators are mature enough to be unbiased. American ones are not. Oh, they have different degrees of bias but rest assured, you find an unbiased baseball announcer and you've stumbled upon a small miracle. Its the nature of the beast. Two people employed by a team who are friends with the team who watch the team play every day will grow to cheer for that team. And it happens in basketball and hockey as well. It is the nature of regional broadcasting. It even happens in national telecasts, where announcers are supposed to be unbiased. An announcer will have his bias. The team he played for, the guys he's friends with, the town he grew up in... whatever. Its a natural occurance and one that we shouldn't have to be explaining to you in detail.

You need to fly right past this notion... because if you haven't noticed, everytime you say "I don't know American sports but it must consist of so and so" every American here responds with, "No, you're wrong." You see a pattern? You get the point? You clearly don't know American sports. You don't know it SO much that all of your presumptions about it are wrong. So its time to defer to the people who DO know that commentators are biased and that there are natural face/heel dynamics involved. And I'll bet that the Canadian posters will gladly report that their country's sports are much the same way.

And there ARE natural face and heel dynamics in sports. Even if you don't want to believe it. And it occurs for ALL the same reasons that the dynamics come up in wrestling, even if they're not scripted in real life. People will cheer for a gritty underdog (see: the Detroit Pistons). People will boo cocky bastards (see: the Yankees; the Lakers). People will cheer the long suffering team trying to get over hurdles (see: The Boston Red Sox; the Chicago Cubs). All of these "personality traits" are VERY REAL aspects of the teams. They are all quite natural. There's a thousand aspects. The Yankees have a team rule to be clean shaven while the Red Sox are free spirits with crazy hair. Its stupid and inconsequential but don't think for a second that it doesn't help shape people's emotions. You are wrong. If we do a poll you'll find that to be overwhelmingly true. So if you do NOT want further abuse to be dropped down upon you you need to accept that what EVERYONE is saying is true instead if your assumption of what is true.

As for the wrestling thing... I would definatelly suggest you go and look towards Ring of Honor Wrestling. When that company was first created there were strict rules. No cheating, in interference, no ref bumps, you must shake hands. The result? 95% of the wrestlers were faces. There was some very entertaining wrestling but quite quickly the company realized that this dynamic does not work. Because it doesn't. I'm sorry. It might work in limited ways and on occasion but in the long term matches lack drama and stories are impossible to develop (for the most part). So my suggestion for you would be to go and track down some early ROH tapes, see your idea in practice and then see if the most interesting portions of the show don't consist of the rare matches that include heels. I'm not saying your system can NOT work... but I do know that the company that tried to form your hypothetical league and which had the luxury of outstanding wrestling and a rabid fanbase eventually dropped ALL of those aspects for a much more traditional face/heel dynamic. And I know I enjoy them more now than then.

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2HoT
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:33 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
I will be disheartened, insulted and a trifle upset if all I get back this time is abuse and mockery - I think these are valid points and, whilst it is ok to disagree, I don't deserve the tirade I have received. Some of the people who have been here for a long time should know that.




Well go have yourself a good cry and perhaps a crumpet because if there is one thing we do not do here it's throw pity partys.


Suck it up, princess.

A bit of advice: Try using your eyes more and your fingers less. You fancy yourself an intelligent man I'm sure so I am confident you can figure out what that means.


[Edited on 8-12-2004 by 2HoT]





Who wants soup?

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ModSquad
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posted on 8-12-2004 at 07:45 PM Edit Post
You clearly can't read anything you haven't written. You are very important, and I hope your mother hugs you.

You present idiotic points, then tell people they're too stupid to understand them when they blow them out of the fucking atmosphere. When you repeat your points and they do it again, you change your points and definitions, then tell people that they're too stupid to argue with you. When they blow you out of the air again, you change your points and meanings again, then tell them that "they don't understand." I guess we're too stupid to understand an argument that changes with every post by The Genius.

After getting verbally ass-raped again, you bust out Semiotics. I can look that up and tell you what that means. It means: "the theory and study of signs and symbols, especially as elements of language or other systems of communication, and comprising semantics, syntactics, and pragmatics." But in terms of this thread it means "what Parvini decides 'heel,' 'face,' or 'match' mean from post to post."

Keep changing definitions. But before you do that, change forums. I'm sure you can wow someone on another web-page with an argument THEY haven't heard before. Don't worry, the moment they make you look like an asshole, you can change the definitions of the argument on them too. It'll take them a few posts to notice. But by then you might have made some friends.


And the word is COMMENTARY, you soul sucking dipshit.

[Edited on 8-12-2004 by ModSquad]





"The moment that The Rick tells me that I am in the wrong then I will stop. And since I have 10 years of reading his work under my belt I feel fairly confident that he won't since he is a proponent of thinking differently. Save the threats."

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