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Author: Subject: Face vs. Face, the way to go?
Parvini
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posted on 8-10-2004 at 11:28 PM Edit Post
Face vs. Face, the way to go?

Watching Cena/ RVD on SD last week, and then thiking of Edge/ Jericho on Raw, got me wondering... What if the WWE went with a face/ face format?

This idea would involve breaking up the traditional heel/ face dichotomy of wrestling to introduce a new dynamic more akin to real sports.

If each wrestler had his or her own set of fans matches would become less predicatble and arguably more exciting. It would also have the potential effect of readdressing the "sports" to "entertainment" balance.

If you think back to that Cena/ RVD match Cole and Tazz had no choice but to call the match as a pure wrestling match. They had to get over each man as a wrestler rather than a chracter or as an integral part of some bizarre soap opera style story-arch.

Of course there is always the worry of a dead crowd in this situation (see Tito Santana vs. Koko B. Ware circa 1991) but I think you'll find that the crowd was pumped AND markedly divided for Cena/ RVD and for Jericho/ Edge as well as, might I add, Angle/ Haas.

A divided crowd, in my opinion, is the more natural state for a crowd to be in. And the situation we have now is surreal to say the least. Since Kayfabe is long dead the fans who attend wrestling matches pretty much "know" who they are supposed to be cheering and who are they are supposed to boo. But with this knowledge comes power, as soon as the crowd feel they are being fed a dud story they can refuse to participate in the right way and mess up the fed's plans. The WWE need the fans to be complicit in order to keep the product seeming fairly legitmate, right now this is frequently not the case (see Edge/ Orton where the face/ heel dichotomy got totally f**ked up by the fans). By removing this power you also remove the focus of wrestling from all this nonsense back to the actual in-ring action. I'm not saying they should try to emulate the crowd at a football grudge match, say Manchester United vs. Arsenal, but they should try to take something of that.

Think of Bret Hart vs. Bulldog, think of Warrior vs. Hogan, Hogan vs. Savage, Warrior vs. Savage - these matches all show wrestling at its most exciting and entertaining, they are all magic because of the face versus face dynamic.

If played right this could take wrestling into brave new realms, the WWE could achieve possibilities that have, as yet, only been glimpsed at in the sparkle of Vince's money-making eye.

[Edited on 10/8/2004 by Parvini]





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gobbledygooker
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posted on 8-10-2004 at 11:39 PM Edit Post
Eh, I don't know. What kind of storylines would this entail? Who can do the most good deeds? You've got to have a guy the fans hate and a guy the fans like so that it will really mean something when the guy the fans like beats the guy the fans hate. I just don't see what kinds of storylines, etc. could be formed on a roster full of "good guys."
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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:16 AM Edit Post
You've got to think outside the box for this as it would mean totally changing the dynamic of wrestling as you know it.

They wouldn't all be babyfaces as such but nobody would really be good OR bad, fans could just cheer for whoever they wanted to.

Think of the Edge/ Jericho situtation right now.





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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:36 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
Think of Bret Hart vs. Bulldog, think of Warrior vs. Hogan, Hogan vs. Savage, Warrior vs. Savage - these matches all show wrestling at its most exciting and entertaining, they are all magic because of the face versus face dynamic.


Could you think about those matches first please?

First...when was Warrior vs Savage a face vs face match? I thought the match between those too that was all super duper had Savage as a heel...up untill Miss Liz and Savage made kissy kissy.

Bret vs Bulldog...was all about who would fight dirty, and if you watched the match Bret was CLEARLY playing the role of the heel. Hell, DBS was such a hugely over face in England that the match itself being held in Wembly had very little chance of being a true face vs face match.

Hogan vs Savage was great because savage went heel afterwards. Seriously, I remember the turn and Savage going nuts afterwards more then the actual match. And once again, the hype was about who would turn...with Savage being the most likely.

And why no mention of the Rock/Jericho feud that made Jericho a heel? It was great and one of the better face vs face FEUDS let alone matches. Ofcourse, it was once again used to turn one guy bad and a big part of the interest was who was going to turn.

Hogan vs Warrior also had the element of the fans wanting to see who would cheat and be evil first. While this was a 100% face vs face match, it wouldn't have been as special if all the matches from the same show were face vs face. The mixing of chants, the crowd changing sides...those things wouldn't have come off as special if they were the norm.

So basically you want to take away the special feeling of a face vs face match for what??? Oh yeah, now I remember...you want to take away the special aspects of a face vs face match so you can also take away fan reaction.

You know what...

FUCK YOU!!!

You post crap about the mods, and all you do is start threads about stuff that nobody besides you cares about. And on top of that they are just dumb.

quote:
Originally posted by ParviniA divided crowd, in my opinion, is the more natural state for a crowd to be in. And the situation we have now is surreal to say the least.


Have you ever heard of the Yankees and Red Sox? Go to a game between those two teams in Boston, and tell me then that the average sports fan is used to being in a diveded crowd. Seriously, how is it surreal to suggest that in "real" sports there isn't good guys and bad guys? Seriously, I'm trying to see your point...but even in golf and tennis (FUCK TENNIS btw) there are fan favorites and fan not-so-favorites. Seriously, how the hell is face vs face more natural then face vs heel in real life?

Really what you posted was complete 100% crap with nothing to support your idea that completely goes against all logic and reason and stinks of "I know better then the writers" so bad I'm gonna have to wash myself for 5 straight days to smell even remotely normal.






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gobbledygooker
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:47 AM Edit Post
Damn, Goalie ain't messing around. I do agree though. That is stupid idea. If you want a bunch of guys in the gray area, with nobody straight up heel or face, watch boxing or ultimate fighting.
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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:50 AM Edit Post
All I'd like to say in response to that diatribe is that I've never said anything bad about the mods here at all.

Also - if nobody else cared about anything I have posted on here then why have all my posts received replies?

Savage/ Warrior from SS 92 is clearly Face/ Face, as is Bret/ DBS and Hogan/ Warrior - I think only a fool would suggest otherwise. Savage/ Hogan, yes I agree they were teasing the Savage heel-turn for months but he still had "Madness" fans in the crowd.

I think you have missed the point here. I was merely putting forward a suggestion and using my powers of rhetoric to see through the point. Surely you can see that face/ face battles are healthy sometimes.

I never said that I know better than the writers, I never said it was 100% fullproof. I said it was a possiblity, although wrestling would be vastly different from what we know now - more action orientated and sports based, exactly as the NWA used to be (sort of) and how boxing actually is (obviously with a few tweaks for entertainment purposes). Perhaps making it all like that would make things bland, you're right, but I think a little of it, or even a lot of it, wont harm anybody or anything.

[Edited on 11/8/2004 by Parvini]





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posted on 8-11-2004 at 12:51 AM Edit Post
GOALIE! Watch your mouth!







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WOOF!

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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:27 AM Edit Post
So let me get this straight?

You actually think the concepts of heel and face exsist in real sports do you? The idea that Tim Henman might be a face where as John Macanro was a heel is entertaining but rather absurd.

Similarly, it is true that football fans will boo the opposition, but nobody boos them because they think that the opposing team are evil. And the commentators treat each team or commetitor as ethical equals. The analogy you made is a misguided one. All I was saying is that the Cena/ RVD match had a genuine spark and you genuinely didn't know who was going to win or how. If it was...say... Dupree/ Cena or Booker T/ RVD could you say the same thing? We know that if the heel was going to go over it wouldn't be cleanly. In affect, what I meant to say was, that the WWE could do more of that. Jericho/ Edge is another good example (although one of them is heading for a heel turn soon). If every wrestler had his own set of fans that the commentators actually acknowledged how would that be a bad thing? Kurt Angle already has many fans but Cole will play them down, same with HHH or any other salient heel. I believe the days of straight faces and heels are gone - I'm sorry but they are. Hogan was a face, Dibiase was a heel - you just can't make such clean divisions anymore. EVERYONE exists in this sort of grey moral area, you've got Stone Cold and DX to thank for that, the traditional notion of an evil heel battling a goody-two-shoes face is dead.





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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:37 AM Edit Post
to expand on my other valid comments that have no reason to be retracted...

quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
If played right this could take wrestling into brave new realms, the WWE could achieve possibilities that have, as yet, only been glimpsed at in the sparkle of Vince's money-making eye.


Yeah...that completely lacks any notion that your idea is better then that of the creative behind the scenes people.

Also, if I say "think of Hogan vs Warrior and how poorly it was recieved" most people raise an eyebrow. Because when you say "Hogan vs Warrior" people assume you meant their Mania match...not the WCW stuff. Same with Savage vs Warrior. As a match, the Mania match has a much more important place in history. In fact, Savage vs Warrior from SummerSlam isn't something I would say is commonly thought of as a good match, and I can't recall anybody using it as a reference before.

What it comes down to is you made a post that wasn't like "could this work" but rather an idea where the "WWE could achieve possibilities that have, as yet, only been glimpsed at in the sparkle of Vince's money-making eye." On top of that, it's an idea that you supported with crap.

Look, On RAW JR thinks Triple H is evil...but then Lawler supports Triple H winning at any cost. Also, look when a face cheats...Lawler ALWAYS points it out to counter JR's harping on the heels for cheating. Often, the commentators will say they respect the abilities of the person whose face/heel status doesn't match their own. Just like in real life you'll get sports commentators who say they dislike certain teams or players. Regardless of how much of a heel/face dynamic there is by the broadcastors, there's no way you can say that fans in real sports don't have favorites and non-favorites...and there's no way you can say that wrestling hasn't blurred the lines where a person is a heel because they are evil or a bad person. Otherwise, how was Kurt Angle a heel with his 3 I's???

I don't know, maybe The-W crowd liked it...but then again, you never double post things on both boards and no mod has ever had an issue with it.


[Edited on 8-11-2004 by bigfatgoalie]






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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:42 AM Edit Post
I know what you mean Parvini, yet Im a little apprehensive to agree. By having face vrs. face matches all the time you cheapen its appeal, as being two respectful athletes. Most people love to hate a bad guy. That, added with the fact that some guys are just born heels (Angle, Batista, Trips), im not sure if I would agree with you at once.
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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:47 AM Edit Post
I have said that I wouldn't do that anymore.

I was merely dressing the idea up in pretty language for amusement's sake.

And I think you'll find I DID back the idea up with the recent examples of Cena/ RVD and Jericho/ Edge - WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT BFG? Do you want me to set my own fed up to test these ideas? Do you want me to refer to more face/ face encounters than I have? What do you want? I can't illustrate the point any more plainly my neurologically challenged friend.

[Edited on 11/8/2004 by Parvini]





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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:49 AM Edit Post
1) It is McEnroe

2) If you don't think real sports has heels I would say see Raiders, The Oakland. They are loved by their segment of fans and despised everywhere else.
There are faces in other sports as well, these are usually individuals rather than teams, guys like Joe Sakic, Ed McCaffery, Barry Sanders, Cal Ripken Jr., Wayne Gretzky, guys you almost have to cheer for even if you don't like their team. (Sorry if Sanders is still a sore spot for any Lions fans out there, but just think of while he was playing.)

I think that if the WWE were to try your face/face idea the fly in the ointment so to speak, would be the fans. By this point the fanbase is so conditioned to good guy vs. bad guy that if the WWE tried to go away from that formula the fans would either turn one guy into the bad guy or they would get bored and stop watching. There needs to be an antagonist to keep wrestling interesting.

AtR





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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:53 AM Edit Post
Sorry about the spelling, my mistake.

Maybe sport in America does have faces and heels - American sport is just a mystery to me.

But over here in here UK, where we play the same games and sports that every other country plays there are no heels or faces. An Arsenal fan will cheer Arsenal and boo and jeer at any one they are facing. Let's not class a heel as anyone who is booed - let's face it, a heel is a villian who does bad things and THUS is booed. Correct?

All I'm saying is that Wrestling doesn't neccessarily NEED to have heels or faces, does it.

[Edited on 11/8/2004 by Parvini]





"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" - John Milton

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posted on 8-11-2004 at 01:56 AM Edit Post
What more do I want...how about for people to not come up with such awesome ideas and then post the with a smarky attitude that makes me feel the need to tell the person to fuck off?

I mean, the idea is original...but that doesn't mean it's any good. Any way you dress up the idea of going facs vs face and saying bye to heels it's still a stinker of an idea.

Look at the Cena/RVD match. The crowd wasn't into RVD or Cena as much as they would have been if Cena was against Booker T. When you look at them doing the stare downs the crowd offered nothing special...honestly RVD against a heel could have got more crowd reaction with his finger points as long as Cena isn't in the ring against him.

I'll say it again...your post was smarky crap and right now I have no desire to read smarky crap.






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Parvini
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 02:07 AM Edit Post
There was nothing smarky about my post at all - if you read it, you'll find - excluding the flairy finish - that it is pretty level headed and consistantly argued.

I said that a face on face encounter would force the focus more onto the actual wrestling than onto the story-line, characters etc. Is that true BFG? Please answer that, label the answer "1.".

I said that it would make wrestling less predicatable. Well, let me put it this way - if a heel wins 9 times out of 10 he'll do it cheaply, we can all see the screwy finishes coming a mile off. We all know when the blow off to a big feud arrive the face will eventualy go over - we know that in the meantime, until that point of climax arrives, generally the heel will go over. Correct? Label your answer "2".

So, logic dictates, that if you remove the face/ heel dynamic that predictibality is also removed. Example: Who won that Koko B. Ware/ Tito Santana battle I mentioned earlier? Try and guess. Label your answer "3". Right... so would it make wrestling any less predictable? Label your answer "4". Thank you.

I said Kayfabe is dead, I said that because the fans KNOW they "have" to cheer for a face and boo a heel that they can trun that to their advantage and often do. Is this correct? Label the answer "5".

I said that more face/ face encounters would help to put the "Sports" back into "Sport Entertainment". Is this a correct hypothesis? (Label answer "6")

Ok - once we have the answer to all 6 questions we can see if I was really building my argument on insecure foundations. Over to you Mr. Bigfatgoalie.





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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 02:49 AM Edit Post
First off...stop being fucking smarky.

1 - Simply better play by play would put the focus on the in-ring events...while still allowing one of wrestlings best devices to get fan reaction. Keep in mind that this is "SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT" and not just two guys trying to pin each other. If you want wrestling to be like UFC or Boxing but fixed I have two words for you, one of them being "off"...wanna guess the other?

2 - The heel always wins by cheating in a predictable manor? Explain how wrestling has squash matches or why Triple H has a finisher other then "cheat to win." A heel (or face as in Jericho from this past Monday's RAW) cheating to win is sometimes the best way to end a match while keeping the story going. What you are missing is that we get no climax without conflict built up by storylines. If a face and another face just trade off wins without extras, it may not affect the actual match, but gives people no reason to think of RAW as must see. And sometimes it just fits for a guy like Randy Orton to have to cheat to beat a better wrestler. You might think it's predictable, but at the same time it's logical. Wrestling all ready avoids logic enough...doing so just to be unpredictable is not a positive.

3 - Guess who won the fantasy match between Eli and SalmonJunkie in OO Mania? You don't know??? Well shit, the unpredictableness of that means that the OOForums would be better off if I did more pOOster-based fantasy booking. If Koko B. Ware/ Tito Santana had a reason for anybody to care, then it'd be a good example. Just because something in unpredictable does not make it better.

4 - STOP BEING SO DAMN SMARKY!!! Once again: just because something in unpredictable does not make it better!!! Hell, to non-internet readin fans Orton getting the title shot at SummerSlam wasn't something you could predict...that doesn't make it good.

5 - What the fuck is the question? If you are complaining about the fans choosing to cheer for who the want, once again FUCK YOU!!! The fact that fans can cheer for who they want and make stars is a great part of wrestling. Ask the folks who got to go apeshit for Hogan at Mania X-8 if that wasn't a highlight of their time spent being a wrestling fan. the fact of the matter is that wrestling fans being able to bring their signs and cheer for who they want to cheer is part of what makes going to a live wrestling event 100x better then going to see a baseball game.

6 - No. Taker as a face vs Big Show as a face would not bring more sport then Angle vs Benoit. Guys who can wrestle make it more of a sport.

OK...so I disagree with everything you've said. So what were you building your foundation on? Where is the lack of arogance and "I know better then you" attitude? How the hell is this not smarky bull shit??? You ignore the importance of the entertainment aspects of pro wrestling, say fuck off to the fans paying to see the show live, and can't see that real sports present players and teams as good and bad. And yes, teams are heels. Look at the sports forum and see the hatred for a player when he does something dirty.

So Mr. Angered by BFG, where's your secure foundations for your argument? Surely by your 8th post you should have some universal reason why the WWE, TNA, or any other promotion would thing "face vs face...that's the way to go."






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posted on 8-11-2004 at 03:11 AM Edit Post
I agree with bfg that better commentary would elevate the in-ring product. Lawler is like a retard at Chuckie Cheese some time for the Womens Championship match, thus degrading the talent and match, and keeping the talk away from the moves being performed.

I understand why Tazz and Cole are plugging the main event every SD, to keep people tuned in, but better play-by-play would keep just as many fans happy and watching.

When a commentator misses a move because they're plugging a title match later, or simply ogling, either women or Evolution, it simply takes away from the match, but more so from the talent.

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posted on 8-11-2004 at 04:40 AM Edit Post
Jesus Christ this is how you all treat your posters here.

Well Fuck you Big Fat Cunt you fucking nerd what gives you the right to say someone's opinion is absurd. Yes I know my post will get deleted because you sit alone at your computer alwasy posting here so everybody can think you are an internet god. You poor waste of skin. Go out have a couple of beers, Get Laid and loosen the fuck up






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posted on 8-11-2004 at 04:53 AM Edit Post
Whoa, getting your post deleted is the least of your worries. I myself have said some shameful things on occasion, but that was a straight out attack. What gives you the right to judge your superiors? What gives you the right to make a flat out guess about someones personal life? And lastly, this is how we treat ill thoughtout posts, not posters. You said what gives bfg the right to say someones opinion is absurd, well what gives you the right to call veterans like bfg cunts? Ill be suprised to see you post again.

p.s. bfg talks like a sailor. get used to it.

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posted on 8-11-2004 at 05:01 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by DMMsuperstarsalazar
quack quack quack quack


I can't imagine why I DIDN'T ban this account before. I'm guessing it's because I was waiting for this pure hunk of genius. That's the second time you've been banned from here. Something tells me the message isn't getting through.





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posted on 8-11-2004 at 05:05 AM Edit Post
I understand you are trying to think out of the box Parvini, but that doesn't actually mean it's good. Just look at Vince thinking outside the box from 1999-2002 with the action adventure nonsense such as Triple H and Rock surviving death or Jericho as a lap dog for Stephanie Mcmahon. The real problem is the writing. If they can't do simple face vs. heel in a compelling fashion from the top of the card straight on down, how can you expect them to pull face vs. face off better? That is harder work for the creative team. A cure for the predictability is better writing and booking.

This is not to say they should never do face vs. face because there is an aura to it when done with the right superstars. However, I will go over your choices and examples of the great face vs. face scenarios. First of all I think the best example is actually Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels from WM 12. It was really about the two men trying to see the best and let the best man win. Both men were true faces heading into the event and both men left the match as faces, but someone did come off like a heel more. That was Bret Hart because he was complaining about the overtime of the match.

I actually think that hurt some of HBK's title victory because in honesty Bret did have somewhat of a point(although there is some revisionist history with the stip, but that's another story). Someone somehow comes out a heel eventually.

I actually remember the Tito/Ko Ko confrontation, but not the winner exactly(I believe Santana won). This was in the fall/winter time wasn't it? It was a house show match from either MSG(lean more towards this since MSG channel aired those matches and we got the feed at times) or Boston Garden am I correct? There could be reasons why this happened. It could be the original opponents for either man was not there and the wwe gave this match for the house show crowd. The wwe could also have tested to see who they wanted to turn.

I will ask you this. Did you ever see Jake "The Snake" Roberts against Randy Savage from SNME in 1986? The time the wwe showed the event, earlier in the day Savage had attacked Steamboat in the classic angle where he crushed his larynx. However, on SNME the match had heel vs. heel because that match had actually been done before the Savage/Steamboat encounter. During the match the crowd did not know who to cheer for, but eventually Jake got the fans rallying behind him and Jesse Ventura was even surprised. The point is someone eventually gets hated in this scenario or someone gains the upperhand in the popularity department.

Hogan/Warrior I would have to say that Warrior was somewhat heelish. Not complete heel, but he had more heelish characteristic heading into Mania 6. Warrior attacked Hogan on SNME without even listening to what Hulk had to say from the accidental clothesline je gave him. Warrior on Main Event started a diatribe that he did not need Hogan's help from Earthquake. Warrior was also talking more demonic about the universe and planets aligning to end Hulkamania. He even stated that it was his time and that he was the chosen one. It was not clear cut heeldom, but Warrior was not the same face he was prior to Rumble '90. The Warrior went back to his full face attitude after being the champion and embraced that Hulkamania was a strong force in the universe and that he would follow in his footsteps. My point here is that this match is remembered as pure face vs. face because of the ending of the match.

Savage/Warrior from SummerSlam '92 was also not true face vs. true face as there was an element that one of the two men sold out to Flair and Mr. Perfect in a deal to secure the victory. It turned out that Flair and Perfect were in a rouse over both men, but that heel element was dangling in the air. That is why I say Hart/HBK is the only true face vs. face match. As for Hogan/Savage which time are you guys talking about? I clearly remember Savage slapping and plastering Hogan for jealousy over Elizabeth on Main Event.

Savage was in the wrong since Hogan was helping their manager to the back of the arena for medical aid. Savage was the clear heel going into WM 5. However, the subtle hints that Hogan might be in the wrong would have been the video "footage" clips Savage kept on record since Hogan "grabbed" Liz's ass at the original SummerSlam since she was on Savage's shoulder all the way to the night in question. Rock and Austin from WM 17 is also somewhat seen as a complete face vs. face match, but it wasn't. It could have been taken that Rock was selling out to Vince Mcmahon by playing the mind games of having Debra as Rock's manager(and maybe they should have kept with that with Austin turning on her which "might" have stopped the crowd cheering the turn).
Okay, this is long enough, but I just wanted to show in detail how the rose coloured glasses principle applies to the matches you used as an example. It really comes down to the writing and booking of the matches along with the talent of the superstars involved tp prevent the boredom and predictable nature of things.

[Edited on 8-11-2004 by promoter2003]

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ModSquad
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 06:30 AM Edit Post
1. BFG, dial it down, please. That first "fuck you" in that first response was just out of the blue. I can see where the second one came from, but you'd already tossed that first one.


2.
quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
Maybe sport in America does have faces and heels - American sport is just a mystery to me.

But over here in here UK, where we play the same games and sports that every other country plays there are no heels or faces.


All right. I like Europe. I like England. But you're going to piss me off if you drop this "America can't be bothered to play the sports that every other country in the world plays" bullshit. I played more years of soccer than any other sport, and I'm pretty sure there are other Americans on this board who claim the same. My friends in high school played more rugby than American football. There was a cricket pitch in my town. But taking that into account might get in the way of you being an asshole or bigot about America. It's so hip by the way.

YES, American sport has faces and heels. I'll just give a few examples:

Cubs, Red Sox and Indians -- lovable losers almost everywhere

Yankees, Braves, Marlins and Diamondbacks -- Yankees hated for being the Yankees... Braves hated (some places) for calling themselves "America's team"... Marlins and Diamondbacks both hated for being expansion teams that won the World Series within 10 years of existence. I don't know ANYONE who roots for those two. The only reason why anyone I know rooted for them is because they played the Yankees in the World Series in 2001 and 2003.

Giants -- bitterly hated by Dodger fans
Dodgers -- bitterly hated by Giants fans

As for football, I know people who would rather lose an arm than see the Cowboy's, or Falcons, or Giants, or Raiders or 49ers win. I can't even begin to list the NBA teams I wouldn't root for if someone tried to pay me to.

You can drop that European snobbery about sport and stuff it, especially since you admit you don't even understand American sports. Like it or not, a lot of us understand soccer just fine, we just don't care. And you could take time to see the humor in the fact that you're spending your time on a message board discussing an AMERICAN form of pro wrestling. Or you could just take a long look at my avatar.





"The moment that The Rick tells me that I am in the wrong then I will stop. And since I have 10 years of reading his work under my belt I feel fairly confident that he won't since he is a proponent of thinking differently. Save the threats."

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LuckyLopez
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 06:47 AM Edit Post
Geez... this is a wacky little thread, huh? I'm glad I didn't do that thing I was thinking about today where I (goodheartedly) taunt Goalie about the suck that was "Trish Stratus likes dodgeball." Its always nice to find out you might have skipped over a landmine.

quote:
Originally posted by Parvini
Similarly, it is true that football fans will boo the opposition, but nobody boos them because they think that the opposing team are evil. And the commentators treat each team or commetitor as ethical equals. The analogy you made is a misguided one.


ModSquad already covered that one but man... Goalie might be guilty of a little bit of overreaction here but he's sure as hell got you on American sports. I think that statement might be the very opposite of what the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry is.

EDIT: To insert excessive amounts of smilies so as to insure the lighthearted nature of a post within a volatile thread.

[Edited on 8-11-2004 by LuckyLopez]





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Alana
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 07:15 AM Edit Post
Jesus Christ, what a migraine-inducing thread this is.

I can partially agree with just about everyone here. Parvini, I can understand where BFG's attitude is coming from because of how you posted in this thread and especially in the "Ask the Rick" forums. All the lists, the need to catergorize everything.... more often than not, you come off as a statistician and not as someone who simply enjoys wrestling for what it is. You're so often excessively analytical that you don't even seem like a fan at times. This may or may not be true, but that's the vibe that I get. And believe me, as a columnist, I understand the compulsion to over-analyze everything. I'm often accused of that mysef. But you seem to be the most "extreme" of that breed of wrestling fan.

I do think that a face v. face scenario can be done compellingly, as Jericho/Edge demonstrated this Monday. But even then, the fans picked Jericho as the face and chose to boo Edge. It's the need to see everything in terms of Good v. Evil the way that television, movies, literature, and basic human nature compel us to. Both guys had their reasons for acting the way that they have in the past few weeks (shades of grey, right?), but the fans sided with Jericho despite his heelish actions. It might be because we know him as a character better, it might be because we identified with him more... but the fact remains that Jericho received more cheers in that match because the fans wouldn't accept the face v. face dynamic.

I personally think that a heel v. heel match can work better when it comes to fan appreciation, given that the wrestlers are good enough. Look no further than Benoit/Angle at Unforgiven 2002. The fans simply sat back and enjoyed the match, and popped for the wrestling accordingly because they didn't have to decide who was "right." Yes, shades of grey exist (Austin and DX), but the fans will always pick a favorite. The face v. heel dynamic has not changed even when WWE tries to pit two babyfaces against one another; it's only a matter of what and whom the fans decide to cheer for.





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LuckyLopez
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posted on 8-11-2004 at 07:41 AM Edit Post
I completely forgot why I was actually going to post. I would humbly submit Booker T and Chris Benoit's WCW TV Title feud as an example of a legit face/face feud that worked well. I know there was a third guy in there serving as a heel early on (I can't remember if it was Perry Saturn, Fit Finley, or Rick Martel) and there was the outside influence subplot of the heel Stevie Ray (and maybe a heel nWo Bret Hart?) but by the time that reached the Best of Seven I'm pretty sure it was straight face vs face (with Hart and Ray running unwanted interference).
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