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Author: Subject: Smackdown future spoilers?
promoter2003
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 04:57 PM Edit Post
Smackdown future spoilers?

From PWTorch.com

Australian WWE Tour Matches - PWTorch.com reader Brad Connors of Melbourne, Australia writes: I was just listening to Australian radio network Triple M, who are supporting the WWE "Smackdown Superstars Return of the Deadman Tour" and heard an ad for the Melbourne show on Aug. 29 at Vodafone Arena. It stated: "The Undertaker and Eddie Guerrero battle for the WWE Championship and by order of GM Kurt Angle Rey Mysterio will battle JBL. Three Championships on the line." Might be a bit of a indicator of how things were going to turn out in future weeks.
*********************************
Card subject to change? Maybe the Taker will get the strap with that headlining of the tour. Who knows and more importantly how many here care?

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AKS
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 06:15 PM Edit Post
Take does not deserve that strap now.

With Eddie's injury, my guess is Bradshaw retains in the cage. They do the rematch at SS with Taker in the mix. Eddie regains while Taker and Bradshaw go into a program, leaving Angle and Eddie to feud (my guess is Angle Vs Cena at SS).

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Stormtrooper
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 06:20 PM Edit Post
he didn't desserve it last time either, doesn't mean anything.





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OO Kyle
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 06:39 PM Edit Post
Not the world's biggest Taker fan, but he deserves it a hell of a lot more than Bradshaw.





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Stormtrooper
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 06:49 PM Edit Post
Well at least JBL is a somewhat fresh character and... no I can't defend Bradshaw, not even against UT.

The logistics of having an unstoppable zombie are pretty bad. Who's he going to feud with, everyone else on Smackdown?

...Big Show, the only guy UT might sell for I guess... that match was faaaaaantastic last time.





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AKS
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 06:58 PM Edit Post
There is a huge difference between Bradshaw and Taker.

Bradshaw is a fresh character and a rising star with upside. Taker is hugely over, but he's a division killer with his gimmick. Unless he was willing to lay down abosultely clean for someone who could benefit (ie. Bradshaw, Eddie) then he should stay away from the title.

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doublee
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 07:27 PM Edit Post
Bradhsaw has pretty much plateaued there is not much upside left to him. Did you hear how dead the crowd was for him last week? If this snippet is accurate it sounds like JBL is just a transitional champ in order to get the belt on 'Taker without having to turn him in the process.

[Edited on 7-7-2004 by doublee]





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AKS
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posted on 7-7-2004 at 08:50 PM Edit Post
I can tell you the crowd was absolutely NOT dead for him in Wpg. HUGE heel heat, lots of 'Eddie' chants and even some cheers. His gimmick is getting over.
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Vaidin
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posted on 7-8-2004 at 01:05 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by AKS
Bradshaw is a fresh character and a rising star with upside. Taker is hugely over, but he's a division killer with his gimmick. Unless he was willing to lay down abosultely clean for someone who could benefit (ie. Bradshaw, Eddie) then he should stay away from the title.


Somehow I really doubt he's going to job absolutely cleanly to any of those guys. If he did, it would be incredibly stupid. JBL doesn't have anywhere near the amount of credibility he would need to be beating UT cleanly and frankly neither does Eddie. Eddie especially has cheating as part of his gimmick so he would definitely have to cheat against the Undertaker.

Stormtrooper:
"...Big Show, the only guy UT might sell for I guess... that match was faaaaaantastic last time."

If you actually doubting UT's willingness to sell or selling ability, then I'm going to be nice and assume you just don't understand what selling is. The person who sold the best last year was the Undertaker with Eddie only a little behind him. Even now with the deadman gimmick back, he sells very well.

As for Big Show's match with UT, if it's the match I'm thinking of that they had last year, it was a very good match made especially so by the Undertaker playing the role of the underdog (yes, it actually happened) and selling excellently.






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Stormtrooper
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posted on 7-8-2004 at 09:48 AM Edit Post
If you thought that was very good I'm going to assume you don't know what a good match actually is.





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Vaidin
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posted on 7-8-2004 at 11:34 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormtrooper
If you thought that was very good I'm going to assume you don't know what a good match actually is.


Well then, please tell me what a good match is then. I'm very curious to know. Then of course I'd like to know what made the match Big Show had against the Undertaker a bad one or at least not good. While I'm waiting for your criteria as to what a good match is, I'll list my own.

For some people, it seems to be a good wrestler, you just have to wrestle fast-paced matches and have an interesting moveset. For others, it's the charisma and playing to the crowd of wrestlers that make them good. Then you have a group of people who think of good wrestlers as those who try to tell a story through the match and make every move count. For most people, though, what makes a good wrestler is some combination of any of these things and more.

As for me, the storytelling is what makes a match good. That is because that is what makes professional wrestling an art form rather than simply an exhibition of moves (as in the case where having an interesting moveset and moving quickly ends up being) or simply an exercise in getting a reaction from the crowd (which has obvious problems as well).

I'll list a number of different aspects of wrestling and give percentages equaling up to a 100 to show how much each matters to me.

Psychology (25%): How a wrestler uses his offensive maneuvers and other non-selling actions to further the story of the match, the angle, and the characters of the wrestlers.

Selling (25%): The way a wrestler sells not only for individual moves, but also for the impact that these moves take on the wrestler throughout the match. One can also sell emotions such as frustration in a match since the point of selling is to show what effect other wrestlers have on each other with their actions.

Transitioning (20%): How a wrestler flows from move to move in a match. This also includes how well a wrestler communicates with another wrestler during the match plus how well a wrestler can "carry" another wrestler through the match.

Pacing (10%): How the speed of the match is used to build up the match from the beginning to the middle to the end.

Execution (20%): The way a wrestler executes his/her moves in order to make them look as strong as possible with the least amount of actual damage done.

Nothing else significantly matters to me as far as good wrestling goes, but there are many other aspects that do play a part in wrestling. Like bumping, moveset, charisma, and playing to the crowd for example.

The last thing I want to mention is that I debated with myself whether or not to include "carrying" in transitioning because it could really go into it's own category, but I thought most of it that we could see in the match is in the transitioning. I'm sure there's quite a lot that goes on behind the scenes when the wrestlers plan out specific spots and/or lay out the general plan for the match beforehand, but since we don't get to see how much of that actually takes place, we can only rate from what we see.

That match was the classic underdog story with the uniqueness of UT being the underdog. The main focus of the match was showing that the UT didn't have his usual power advantage in the match since his opponent was the Big Show and of course the Big Show using that to give himself the advantage in the match. UT has to resort to his technical skills to finally defeat the Big Show by ending the match with his Takin' care of business (which is just a dragon sleeper).

UT's execution of his moves were very well done and he focused his match mainly on the head area of the Big Show, which made perfect sense. The reason being is that UT wouldn't be able to lift the Big Show up to do his 3 other established finishers including the chokeslam, the Last Ride, and the Tombstone and thus working on the Big Show's back wouldn't do much to help him win the match. He worked on the head area so that his dragon sleeper would be more effective and it worked.

The match was paced slowly, which is logical as the Big Show wanted to wear down UT with his back-related offense so as to finish him with his own chokeslam.

I can't remember much more of this match beyond this so I'm going to stop here. Alright, now it's your turn to explain what the Undertaker and the Big Show did or did not do that made the match bad or at least not good.






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posted on 7-10-2004 at 07:00 AM Edit Post
The offence was repetitive, the setup for UT's finish was contrived to the extreme... it was boring. Basically two large guys walking around hitting each other occasionally, a Hulk Hogan match.





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Vaidin
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posted on 7-10-2004 at 08:21 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormtrooper
The offence was repetitive, the setup for UT's finish was contrived to the extreme... it was boring. Basically two large guys walking around hitting each other occasionally, a Hulk Hogan match.


Okay the offense is repetitive, but that's true of pretty much every decent length match the WWE has. Everyone from Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, and Eddie Guerrero to John Cena and Booker T hit the same moves many times. The Big Show certainly is one to use even less moves than the average wrestler in the WWE, but that's because he really doesn't need to psychology-wise. His normal punches and chops are more effective than most regular moves.

The finish doesn't look very good mainly it's because the Big Show bending backwards like that must be extremely uncomfortable for him and thus he tapped immediately after being put in the dragon sleeper.

I don't get the last sentence, though. It's just two very big guys walking around and hitting each other occasionally? Then what is good? Two small to medium-sized guys running around quickly hitting each other frequently? That seems to be the implication, but I'm not sure so I'll ask you to clarify that a bit.






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shashwat mishra
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posted on 7-10-2004 at 10:58 AM Edit Post
Over the years Undertaker has been a great asset for the WWE - he is a legend.

I do not think Bradshaw can in any logical way be compared to him at all. It is ridiculous.

And I think Taker has delivered many memorable matches over the years - his in ring performances are always solid. He may not be a great technical wrestler but I would say he is underrated on wrestling ability.

And his offense is as repetitive as any other wrestler. Wrestlers have signature movesets. Even a great entertainer like the Rock "punched" his opponents to doom. And Austin was "Punch, Kick, Finger, Stunner".





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posted on 7-10-2004 at 11:34 AM Edit Post
He's had great matches with great people, I can't think of a match that he's made great.





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nilesanderson
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posted on 7-10-2004 at 12:31 PM Edit Post
Great people can't make great matches with logs of shit. Contrary to the "carry a broomstick to a good match" cliche, a great match involves great work from both workers. So if UT had a great match with Kurt Angle, it's because he put in his fair share of work. Also, UT is incredibly fast paced for a guy his size. His matches move quickly as he seems to fly across the ring at times (granted, usually in his squash matches). And as great matches he's had that didn't involve Angle or Benoit, I personally enjoy his match against Kane at WM14. In fact, it is the match I most fondly remember from the WM (and I saw it for the first time last year, so I didn't even have the live experience to help heighten the drama). I was very impressed by how UT worked that match. While I have never seen it, his match against Diesel at WM12(?) seems to be talked of fondly by many people.
Finally, to make sure this doesn't become a flamewar, I know you don't like UT, Troop. I know you will never like him, no amount of talking to you will change that. Basically, I'm just trying to sell you on the fact that, love him or hate him, UT is a good wrestler that has contributed a lot to the WWF/E legacy. Just because his style of wrestling doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything to the roster. There are lots of big men who don't make it over, yet UT has. There must be something about him that sets him apart from the A-Trains or the Nathan Jones'.






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markout
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posted on 7-10-2004 at 05:35 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vaidin
Psychology (25%): How a wrestler uses his offensive maneuvers and other non-selling actions to further the story of the match, the angle, and the characters of the wrestlers.

Selling (25%): The way a wrestler sells not only for individual moves, but also for the impact that these moves take on the wrestler throughout the match. One can also sell emotions such as frustration in a match since the point of selling is to show what effect other wrestlers have on each other with their actions.

Transitioning (20%): How a wrestler flows from move to move in a match. This also includes how well a wrestler communicates with another wrestler during the match plus how well a wrestler can "carry" another wrestler through the match.

Pacing (10%): How the speed of the match is used to build up the match from the beginning to the middle to the end.

Execution (20%): The way a wrestler executes his/her moves in order to make them look as strong as possible with the least amount of actual damage done.


Jeez man! Do you sit there with a notebook and a calculator trying to mathematically add up whether or not you enjoyed the match?

Do you do this for anything else in life? I'd hate to see your guide to good sex. You must be fun on dates...





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posted on 7-10-2004 at 10:53 PM Edit Post
To be honest, they fucked up by taking the WWE title off Eddie Guerrero in the first place. To me, no matter what they do down the line, they’ve already dropped the ball when they gave the strap to Bradshaw.

What ticks me off even more is how dis-respectable a champ they’ve made JBL, because they’ve been feeding him garbage opponents in the last 2 weeks of his run. If they gave him the title, then there was a special reason. If it indicates they are going to push Bradshaw, then he will retain against Eddie next week, only because he hasn’t gotten the chance to shine with legitimate opponents.

It’s just plain mockery for Bradshaw, folks. He gets to chose his matches, eh?? Then if he can’t freaking main event, of course he’s gonna be put in the ring against guys like Spike Dudley in his first title defense. Geez, what a champ.

If JBL didn’t even defend the title yet, I think he would have looked better as a champ. But if they’re using Spike Dudley to give him the heel heat, then that’s just crap.

The booking over the last 2 weeks doesn’t even make sense regarding the WWE title situation. And there are two reasons for this:

a) If they’re gonna push Bradshaw, then why even have the re-match with Eddie in a steal cage match so soon?? That is not only ill-logical, but it destroys any heat Eddie ever had. And Eddie doesn’t deserve to be disrespected like that.

b) If they’re not gonna push Bradshaw, and feed him to guys like Spike Dudley in his first week or so, then why did they even bother giving him the strap??

As I’ve said, they’ve already fucked up the WWE title picture, and no, I don’t believe Taker deserves the strap so soon in regards to late August.

In fact, the biggest question for Taker right now is, is he a heel or a face?? Get his character straightened out, then give him months to build himself up as a legitimate challenger for the WWE title.

The only way to fix back the WWE title picture is to have Eddie regain the WWE title on SD! next week.


[Edited on 7-10-2004 by microplay_24]





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Vaidin
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posted on 7-11-2004 at 02:59 AM Edit Post
markout:
"Jeez man! Do you sit there with a notebook and a calculator trying to mathematically add up whether or not you enjoyed the match?"

Ummm...no. The percentages are just a rough idea of the importance of each category. This is also only for how good or bad a match is, not how much I enjoyed it. That's a different kind of "good" for me.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeb Tennyson Lund
Well, thank you for that trip through "Better Wrestling Through Accountancy."

Here's what I want to know. You define Psychology as: "How a wrestler uses his offensive maneuvers and other non-selling actions to further the story of the match, the angle, and the characters of the wrestlers." Offensive maneuvers, furthering a story.

However, wrestlers often "Sell" the struggle to perform their own offensive moves. Moreover, offensive moves are used in Transition: i.e., a suplex, then a punch to the head, then pulling the opponent up, then another punch, then another move. In short, transition moves can be offensive, and selling can be offensive; yet, in your scheme, offensive maneuvers seem only to contribute to psychology.

Here's something I'm wondering: if a match has a majority of transition moves, do you scale your percentage of importance of Transitioning above 20% and reduce the percentage of Psychology? Or do you increase Psychology from 25% to, say, 35% with a concomitant downgrade in Transitioning?

Moreover, Pacing is dictated by offensive moves (Psychology, Selling and Transitioning as well as Execution). If Psychology, Selling and Transitioning are poor, can you still have a full 10% on Pacing?

Also, if Execution of every move is totally abysmal, can you have full marks on either Psychology, Selling or Transitioning? Finally, are the markings interrelated? Because your definitions are so hopelessly amorphous as to have your final four criteria essentially stand as inseparable subsets of the first. Psychology, by your definition, is how a wrestler uses his offense to further the match or angle. Well, pacing, transitioning, execution and selling those moves is part of his or her offensive repertoire and thus part of psychology. You've taken one concept and broken it down into fourths, then decided that each fundamentally linked aspect can be singularly and non-contextually evaluated.

And one more question: do all matches add up to 100%? If so, when one aspect is bad, does that inflate the importance or worth of other aspects?

Please answer with as much detail as possible. And graphs, if you can manage it.


Well since you were so very polite, I will explain. Alas, I don't know the proper measures to take when inputting graphs into a forum board so you will have to do without it. Fear not, though, it wouldn't be necessary anyway.

There is no scaling in the percentages for how many transition moves are used and the like.

Yes, each part of the match is fundamentally linked to most of the others. So most actions done in a match are part of more than one category. For example, the Big Show putting say Spike Dudley in a bearhug after an irish whip is an example of psychology, transitioning, pacing, and execution. Psychology because the intent of the action is to weaken the back of the opponent to set up for the chokeslam, transitioning because of the way he got the bearhug in, pacing because it slows the match down to get pops for the face, and execution because of how well the move was done (i.e. was it too stiff/loose?). Thus, your comment about my criteria being simply subsets of the first one is false.

"Psychology, by your definition, is how a wrestler uses his offense to further the match or angle."

This is incorrect as I did not say that. I said, "How a wrestler uses his offensive maneuvers and other non-selling actions to further the STORY of the match, the angle, and the characters of the wrestlers." Note the important part about the story. You can further a match along without furthering the story of the match. Transitioning and pacing can both do this.

For example, let's say we have your typical squash and we'll use the Big Show and Spike Dudley. So they're having the match and the story of the match is going to be spunky small guy must use his speed advantage to hurt the big guy while big guy tries to grab him and squash the life out of him with the big guy's power advantage. So they go along with this for the most part leading into the aforementioned bearhug. This of course furthers the STORY of the match along using pacing and transitioning as explain earlier.

However, if Spike Dudley were to free himself from the bearhug by grabbing both of the Big Show's hands and separating them by himself with ease, then successfully reversing an irish whip from the Big Show, the story would be hurt. It would not be furthered along as it will kill the "little guy has the speed advantage not the power advantage" story of the match and makes no sense under normal circumstances. However, the match is still being furthered along in the technical sense as the match is progressing toward whatever it's final conclusion might be. Regardless of whether it makes sense in the context of the story or not. Transitioning and pacing do not necessarily move the match along meaningfully.

It seems that what you did was equate my talk of furthering the story of the match with simply furthering the match.

The last thing I should do is answer your final question. That is that all matches do not add up to 100%. That is just the maximum percentage of how good the match could be. So a 100% match would be perfect in all aspects.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Vaidin]






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posted on 7-11-2004 at 03:22 AM Edit Post
I liked Big Show vs, Taker. Maybe it's just me, but big men matches only look bad to me when I've been hearing all week long online about how much those big men have no workrate. If you're looking for something to be bad, it will look bad. Me, I was pumped for Batista vs. kane, even though I was waiting for the Hardy screwjob the whole time.






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salmonjunkie
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posted on 7-11-2004 at 10:11 AM Edit Post
Honestly, I have enjoyed at least 75% of Big Show/Taker matches. Sorry, Stormy, but I find those guys entertaining.






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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 7-11-2004 at 04:29 PM Edit Post
Here's a n odd thought...but Eddie without the title chasing JBL has been 100 times better TV then Bradshaw chasing Eddie...isn't that a good enough reason for JBL having the title?

JBL + WWE title = SmackDown better....it's sad, but it's true.

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posted on 7-11-2004 at 08:41 PM Edit Post
"If they’re gonna push Bradshaw, then why even have the re-match with Eddie in a steal cage match so soon?? That is not only ill-logical, but it destroys any heat Eddie ever had. And Eddie doesn’t deserve to be disrespected like that."

I thought about this comment for a while and I'm gonna have to call bullshit. It's the exact same thing everybody said about Eddie (including myself) after he lost the US title to Big Show. "Eddie will lose all his heat now" people said, "his career is finished" they continued. 4 months later, he beats Brock Lesnar for the WWE Title. Hmmm, seems to me, Eddie has that untouchable factor. He doesn't need the title, he'll be every bit as entertaining without it and, believe it or not, he will have everybit as much heat. Fans love him, one match won't change that. And he will be in the title race again. Even if he loses to Bradshaw, he'll be fine.






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doublee
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posted on 7-11-2004 at 09:43 PM Edit Post
The one thing about JBL that is irritating me is that ever since this big push of his has started he has not wrestled anyone of not outside of Eddie. He comes on TV every week and wrestles squash matches against the dregs of the Cruiser divison. If not for Eddie showing up people would be falling asleep during JBL's matches.





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posted on 7-11-2004 at 11:20 PM Edit Post
Not neccesarily a bad idea for Bradshaw to work some squashes to help give him credibility.

I feel Eddie will likely lose next week, but he will get another run.

With Angle wanting to form an Evolution-type stable on SD, Eddie will likely be the lead babyface.

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