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Author: Subject: OOfficial Discussion Thread for: AEW/NXT Wednesday Night Fight (December 11, 2019)
DevilSoprano
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posted on 12-12-2019 at 08:29 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
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DKBroiler
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posted on 12-12-2019 at 08:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
While I donít think Balor should be booked for repeated clean wins over guys like Brock or Braun or even Keith Lee - nor should any sub 200 pound performer - on a pound for pound basis Iím pretty sure you could make a better argument for Balor being the best pro wrestler in the world than you can that he sucks.

In the whole WWE and AEW here are the guys that I personally think are better pound for pound performers.

Daniel Bryan
Adam Cole

Thatís the whole list. Arguments for Omega, PAC, Rollins, Ciampa and about 15 other guys are totally in play but saying that they suck would be a bit ridiculous. If Balor showed up on AEW next month the hardest of hardcore AEW supporters would all have neck issues from the repeated attempts at blowing themselves over it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but Iím just mind boggled as to how you landed on that one. Hell, me and DevilSop agree and thatís like a once every 15 month occurrence.

Edit - Upon further review clearly thatís more of an anti-Vince post than anti-Balor but this still cracks me up. Despite all the greatness that NXT has had they were never seen as the equal to Raw or SD until the last 6 weeks. Wrestling will always needs veterans to work with gifted young guys. Look at how much Jericho has done for AEWís mid card guys. Only difference here is that the vet with name recognition is still firmly in his prime.

Wrestling does not work long term unless people of different ages mix it up. Itís a perennial passing of the torch business. If you put on a show where you only promote young talent youíll never get a casual viewer. Hell, up until recently I was a Takeover only NXT watcher. Do you know what got me to become a weekly watcher? The NXT invasion storyline. Theyíve kept me watching because of Cole and guys like Balor showing Coleís importance.

Lastly ... AEW has plenty of wrestlecrap too. The Nightmare Collective? I kind of like The Dark Order but still ... itís wrestlecrap. Shit ... AEW has a main event level dinosaur. That ainít Vinceís fault. The only difference is AEW has 10% more swear words and meta references ... and like 80% of that is Chris Jericho.

[Edited on 12-12-2019 by DKBroiler]





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DevilSoprano
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posted on 12-12-2019 at 10:33 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
While I donít think Balor should be booked for repeated clean wins over guys like Brock or Braun or even Keith Lee - nor should any sub 200 pound performer - on a pound for pound basis Iím pretty sure you could make a better argument for Balor being the best pro wrestler in the world than you can that he sucks.


See you say we agree, but then you post crap like this. Size shouldn't matter in a fictional sports entertainment world because it barely matters in a real world situation. Talent will always beat size. Now if talent is comparable, then yes size might matter. But Balor has a trillion times more talent than Braun. And he has way more wrestling talent than Brock. But if WWE put on compelling stories for their talent, anyone should be able to beat anyone because its a damn fictional pre-determined result.


quote:
Look at how much Jericho has done for AEWís mid card guys. Only difference here is that the vet with name recognition is still firmly in his prime.


Jericho's done nothing for anyone in AEW besides Jericho. I mean, maybe you could have made an argument for Darby but considering Darby's barely been seen since and has already been relegated back down to lower midcard, you can no longer make that argument. Sammy and Santana/Ortiz have gotten nothing from being associated with Jericho.

quote:
Wrestling does not work long term unless people of different ages mix it up. Itís a perennial passing of the torch business. If you put on a show where you only promote young talent youíll never get a casual viewer.


I know way more casual viewers of NXT than I do of Raw, Smackdown, or AEW and that was all pre-USA.

quote:
Lastly ... AEW has plenty of wrestlecrap too. The Nightmare Collective? I kind of like The Dark Order but still ... itís wrestlecrap. Shit ... AEW has a main event level dinosaur. That ainít Vinceís fault. The only difference is AEW has 10% more swear words and meta references ... and like 80% of that is Chris Jericho.

[Edited on 12-12-2019 by DKBroiler]


80% Jericho is probably why I'm 60% bored with AEW.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 01:53 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
My main takeaway from last night is that Nick Jackson needs to go ahead and shave his head. The guy is going to be approaching "Baron Corbin circa 2017" levels pretty soon.

Also, I'm curious to see how things play out in NXT between now and WrestleMania. I'm kind of thinking that Gargano comes back next week to cost Balor his match against Cole. Then we get Cole/Ciampa at TakeOver Portland in February, where Ciampa regains the title. And then we Ciampa/Lee at the TakeOver before WrestleMania for the title. Of course, I could end up being completely wrong about all of that but that's my current take on things.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 02:17 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
While I donít think Balor should be booked for repeated clean wins over guys like Brock or Braun or even Keith Lee - nor should any sub 200 pound performer - on a pound for pound basis Iím pretty sure you could make a better argument for Balor being the best pro wrestler in the world than you can that he sucks.




Beating big guys repeatedly was pretty much all Shawn Michaels did in 1996 and it worked out well. Granted, that was peak political mastermind Shawn Michaels so it wasn't WWE's mo but still the precedent is there.

I get your take on realism but real combat sports don't have super duper moves that are(mostly) unique to every fighter. Finn's strike based move set looks believable against anybody just like Shawn Michaels could go on a giant killing winning streak with Sweet Chin Music.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 03:16 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
While I've never been a big Finn Balor fan, I must say that Broiler is totally smoking the reefer on this one. Size Does Not Matter should be the International Wrestling Motto. This is drama. A movie fight scene and wrestling have more in common than wrestling and MMA do. If "smaller guy beats bigger guy" provides the best plot, then that's what bees. If "big guy always wins" were really a thing, what metaphor would replace David Vs Goliath in the vocabulary of All Sportscasters Everywhere?

[Edited on 12-13-2019 by Count Zero]

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 03:52 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
-- The viewership numbers are in this week and the 12/11 AEW Dynamite and NXT on USA shows battled to a tie in yesterday's Wednesday Night Ratings battle, with both shows being watched by an average of 778,000 viewers.

-- AEW did manage to squeak out a win in the 18-49 demographic, scoring a 0.28 rating, placing it 11th overall, to NXT's 0.24, which put it in the 21st position. Leading the demo with a 0.48 rating was an NBA regular season game between the Clippers and Raptors and another NBA game between New Orleans and Milwaukee finished third.





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DKBroiler
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posted on 12-13-2019 at 03:19 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by First 9
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
While I donít think Balor should be booked for repeated clean wins over guys like Brock or Braun or even Keith Lee - nor should any sub 200 pound performer - on a pound for pound basis Iím pretty sure you could make a better argument for Balor being the best pro wrestler in the world than you can that he sucks.




Beating big guys repeatedly was pretty much all Shawn Michaels did in 1996 and it worked out well. Granted, that was peak political mastermind Shawn Michaels so it wasn't WWE's mo but still the precedent is there.

I get your take on realism but real combat sports don't have super duper moves that are(mostly) unique to every fighter. Finn's strike based move set looks believable against anybody just like Shawn Michaels could go on a giant killing winning streak with Sweet Chin Music.


I donít mind them winning especially in things like triple threats or gimmick matches. I donít even mind a highly built up signature 1 on 1 win. What my issue is with small guys as champs is when they hold onto the championship for a long stretch and repeatedly beat guys 100 lbs or more bigger than them.

Cole has been great as champ. Iíd have no issue with him beating Lee at a PPV. My issue would be if in 4 months we looked up and he had clean wins over Lee a few times, another over Braun, another over Brock and add in a few down the food chain big guys like Rowan or even Corbin. At some point in that meat grinder of a schedule one of those guys should win just due to the power difference ... even in a ďflash knock out sort of wayĒ.

You brought up HBK but keep in mind that it was Diesel who had the full year title reign, not HBK. HBK only had one WWE title run longer than 200 days and the big guy meat grinder of Sid, Vader, and the Undertaker was his eventual undoing.

Here is the thing with big guys. If you are going to employ them they have to stay strong. Small guys can bounce back from defeats easily but big guys donít. Look at AEW. Luchasaurus should basically never lose cleanly and definitely not repeatedly or his size becomes a joke instead of a benefit.





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posted on 12-13-2019 at 03:25 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
While I've never been a big Finn Balor fan, I must say that Broiler is totally smoking the reefer on this one. Size Does Not Matter should be the International Wrestling Motto. This is drama. A movie fight scene and wrestling have more in common than wrestling and MMA do. If "smaller guy beats bigger guy" provides the best plot, then that's what bees. If "big guy always wins" were really a thing, what metaphor would replace David Vs Goliath in the vocabulary of All Sportscasters Everywhere?

[Edited on 12-13-2019 by Count Zero]


You guys are missing the point so Iíll summarize.

The ďGoldberg PushĒ should never go to a small guy. Wins and championships or even an occasional long reign by hook or crook is fine but not anything resembling dominance or the big guys are all fucked.

A small heel can sort of pull it off - see Punk, HBK or even Cole now ... even Flair - but usually they had to resort to rule bending to up end the big guys. A small face getting a run like that gets silly the moment that Kofi steps in a ring and is looking at Lesnar.





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posted on 12-13-2019 at 03:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
Here is the thing with big guys. If you are going to employ them they have to stay strong. Small guys can bounce back from defeats easily but big guys donít. Look at AEW. Luchasaurus should basically never lose cleanly and definitely not repeatedly or his size becomes a joke instead of a benefit.


This is the salient point here, in my mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with a smaller wrestler beating a hoss-type wrestler on any given show, but if being huge is to mean anything in wrestling -- and it has, consistently, as long as wrestling companies have been hiring guys who are 7 feet tall or 400 pounds or whatever -- you have to book the guys who are in such a way as to suggest they have an inherent advantage. Otherwise, someone who takes down a giant doesn't gain as much from it. Beating Braun Strowman still means something in today's WWE; beating the Great Khali in the back half of his WWE career meant less than nothing.

There are also logistical reasons why size can matter in wrestling, if the smaller wrestler can't pull off his finisher against the larger one, or if he can't make it look like it hurts.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 04:17 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by G. Jonah Jameson
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
Here is the thing with big guys. If you are going to employ them they have to stay strong. Small guys can bounce back from defeats easily but big guys donít. Look at AEW. Luchasaurus should basically never lose cleanly and definitely not repeatedly or his size becomes a joke instead of a benefit.


This is the salient point here, in my mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with a smaller wrestler beating a hoss-type wrestler on any given show, but if being huge is to mean anything in wrestling -- and it has, consistently, as long as wrestling companies have been hiring guys who are 7 feet tall or 400 pounds or whatever -- you have to book the guys who are in such a way as to suggest they have an inherent advantage. Otherwise, someone who takes down a giant doesn't gain as much from it. Beating Braun Strowman still means something in today's WWE; beating the Great Khali in the back half of his WWE career meant less than nothing.

There are also logistical reasons why size can matter in wrestling, if the smaller wrestler can't pull off his finisher against the larger one, or if he can't make it look like it hurts.


Well said. Sweet Chin Music is one of the greatest finishers ever because itís a move that should be able to hurt anyone regardless of size. Thatís the hallmark of a great finisher.

But yeah, exactly what you said. Itís pointless to even employ big guys unless you keep them strong so that when the smaller guy does win it matters.





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posted on 12-13-2019 at 04:57 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler

You brought up HBK but keep in mind that it was Diesel who had the full year title reign, not HBK. HBK only had one WWE title run longer than 200 days and the big guy meat grinder of Sid, Vader, and the Undertaker was his eventual undoing.

Here is the thing with big guys. If you are going to employ them they have to stay strong. Small guys can bounce back from defeats easily but big guys donít. Look at AEW. Luchasaurus should basically never lose cleanly and definitely not repeatedly or his size becomes a joke instead of a benefit.


Not to be pendantic but I think you're misrembering how Shawn lost the title.He dropped it to Sid but in cheap fashion as Sid took advantage of Shawn wasting time checking on his manager.Before then he had clean wins over the likes of Vader and Nash. And while he didn't get a year long title reign, the only reason he dropped it to Sid was so he could regain the title two months later in San Antonio. The plan was for Bret to regain the Title at WM to avenge his previous lost. Big men were just obstacles for Michaels to overcome on the road to his rematch with Bret.

[Edited on 12-13-2019 by First 9]

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 05:04 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
A short streak of surprise wins by a small guy, like Shorty G beating Corbin a couple of times, over bigger opponents would be fun. But in this case "bigger" would have to be wrestlers of the size of Rollins, Orton, or McIntyre. It's much less plausible with the real behemoths like Strowman or Big Show. That kind of thing has to be reserved for very special one-off moments, like when Rey beat Kevin Nash in WCW. Do something really wild like, hypothetically, Marko Stunt beating a heel Braun at a Wrestlemania and it would be a great crowd-popper. Like a Wrestlemania 3, King Kong Bundy didn't lose to the midgets but the place would have gone insane if they'd done a group pin on him. Just don't make this kind of match-up something that repeats itself to frequently. The smaller guy has to go back to his usual opponents to remain plausible as a competitor. Being a Giant-Killer is something that should be used maybe three times a decade, tops, by the same guy.





Well you know, just because these young men have little education and live in squalor, it doesn't entitle them to commit antisocial behaviour and get away with it.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 05:17 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by First 9
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler

You brought up HBK but keep in mind that it was Diesel who had the full year title reign, not HBK. HBK only had one WWE title run longer than 200 days and the big guy meat grinder of Sid, Vader, and the Undertaker was his eventual undoing.

Here is the thing with big guys. If you are going to employ them they have to stay strong. Small guys can bounce back from defeats easily but big guys donít. Look at AEW. Luchasaurus should basically never lose cleanly and definitely not repeatedly or his size becomes a joke instead of a benefit.


Not to be pendantic but I think you're misrembering how Shawn lost the title.He dropped it to Sid but in cheap fashion as Sid took advantage of Shawn wasting time checking on his manager.Before then he had clean wins over the likes of Vader and Nash. And while he didn't get a year long title reign, the only reason he dropped it to Sid was so he could regain the title two months later in San Antonio. The plan was for Bret to regain the Title at WM to avenge his previous lost. Big men were just obstacles for Michaels to overcome on the road to his rematch with Bret.

[Edited on 12-13-2019 by First 9]


I get that ... still ... your example is one using arguably the greatest pro wrestler ever on his career best run. In general though thatís not a recipe that most people can follow. Also Iím not sure if at that time any of those guys he went over had lost repeatedly to smaller guys. Most of them were fed small guys so that HBK could look extra amazing when he won.

If WWE decided that Cole or Bryan were going to go on a giant killer streak youíd better believe that basically every other sub 200 pound guy would be losing more than they already do to build up beating those monsters as an accomplishment.

One other thing ... that was in 1996. In 2019 99.99% of the fan base can find out the real life credentials of each big guy in 5 seconds. Lesnar is an MMA world champ. We canít unknow this. Strowman is a strongman champ. Corbin played in the NFL. Iím assuming that Luchasaurus fought his way out of a tar pit but am too lazy to confirm. Regardless ... maybe some of you guys can suspend disbelief better than I can but trying to explain to someone why a dude significantly smaller than me can beat up an NFL player is a tough sell. An MMA world champ losing to someone who might not be able to beat me up is a non-starter completely.

[Edited on 12-13-2019 by DKBroiler]





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posted on 12-13-2019 at 05:18 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
A short streak of surprise wins by a small guy, like Shorty G beating Corbin a couple of times, over bigger opponents would be fun. But in this case "bigger" would have to be wrestlers of the size of Rollins, Orton, or McIntyre. It's much less plausible with the real behemoths like Strowman or Big Show. That kind of thing has to be reserved for very special one-off moments, like when Rey beat Kevin Nash in WCW. Do something really wild like, hypothetically, Marko Stunt beating a heel Braun at a Wrestlemania and it would be a great crowd-popper. Like a Wrestlemania 3, King Kong Bundy didn't lose to the midgets but the place would have gone insane if they'd done a group pin on him. Just don't make this kind of match-up something that repeats itself to frequently. The smaller guy has to go back to his usual opponents to remain plausible as a competitor. Being a Giant-Killer is something that should be used maybe three times a decade, tops, by the same guy.



1000 times this. Well said Pads.





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posted on 12-13-2019 at 06:48 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
If WWE decided that Cole or Bryan were going to go on a giant killer streak youíd better believe that basically every other sub 200 pound guy would be losing more than they already do to build up beating those monsters as an accomplishment.





I agree with this. I don't mind big guys winning more often than not but the idea of Balor being a giant killer isn't weird to me.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 06:56 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I completely agree also.

However I feel I have to point out my dislike of Balor isn't due to his size, it's his style. Which is why in my post I tried to make the distinction between MY view (which I am happy doesn't agree with others, life would be shit if we all liked the same thing, hell, I have grown to see the Young Bucks as the future style-wise due to their ability to tell a story and use psychology that's on another level but I know many here don't get it) and the fact an already established star is stealing the spot in NXT.

I would feel exactly the same in that respect if it were Owens, Rollins, hell even Big E! Yes, I'd enjoy the matches more but the sentiment is the same.

Also, unless its a swerve, this isn't a "big star comes back to give the rub" scenario. I think there is a real danger Balor really is going to be part of the roster, which is just a damn shame. I just don't see why it's necessary.

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posted on 12-13-2019 at 07:20 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Size matters to a point, but a good wrestler will look believable no matter their size. There was a strap match between Sting and Vader where Sting won, because he was able to outlast Vader. Sting simply had to take a beating and outlast Vader.

Lots of smaller guys like Flair, Bret, Malenko, Benoit, Angle and Bryan had submission moves where they built matches around working on a single part of an opponent and weakening it and/or the move being damn near inescapable. How nobody has stolen Flairís bums like crazy and work the knee formula to mega success is baffling. Chop block. Kicks and elbow drops to the knee. Itís by the numbers, but man does it work.

Angle making Brock tap is believable because the ankle lock hurts if you actually do it. Hell, the wrestling version of it still hurts.

Others have knock out moves. Austin was never that big, but him beating Taker, Kane, or Big Show with the stunner was easily believable. HBK and SCM. Hell thereís a reason why lots of guys have some variation of a running knee strike as a finisher. I mean, Adam Coleís Last Shot looks like it could knock a big guy out long enough for a pin. Balorís Coup de Gr‚ce looks like itíd knock the wind out of you.

You also need big guys who know how to look stunned, who know how to sell. Braun bases his offensive on reckless aggression. He runs shoulder first in to the ring post a lot.

Kane was lumbering. You could beat him with being quicker, and picking your spots. Taker has one of the more impressive win lose records, and when you think of him losing itís to a guy with a knock out move (Austin/HBK), a dude who has size (BROCKKKKK LESSSSSNAR), or it wasnít a clean loss.

The real issue is when you have the unicorns like Brock, Triple H, and The Rock who are a) big dudes b) really good wrestlers. Itís hard to find ways for those guys to realistically lose unless itís against a really good worker.

There have been other guys (Orton and Batista) who have also received mega pushes were they had size and skill, but were never really dominant because their skill was never clearly best in class. And of course thereís a guy like Goldberg who had the size, but never the skill. Once his streak was over, he was mostly DOA in the ring because of his lack of skill.

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posted on 12-14-2019 at 05:05 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I just want to point out that while guys like HBK, SCSA, Rollins or Hart are ďWWE smallĒ they are still pretty large humans at 225 to 245 pounds. There is a very big difference size wise between 195 and 225 or 245.

Anyone notice that they said Ciampa and Leeís weight but not Balorís? Heís like 165 pounds.





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posted on 12-14-2019 at 05:25 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
A smaller guy who works as a face CAN hold the championship against the bigger heels without resorting to cheating. That was Bob Backlund's stock-in-trade for 2,135 days.

Edited to add: .....Am I showing my age here?

[Edited on 12-14-2019 by G-Spot]





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posted on 12-14-2019 at 07:57 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by G-Spot
A smaller guy who works as a face CAN hold the championship against the bigger heels without resorting to cheating. That was Bob Backlund's stock-in-trade for 2,135 days.

Edited to add: .....Am I showing my age here?

[Edited on 12-14-2019 by G-Spot]


Theoretically you could win the NFL championship without using the forward pass too.





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posted on 12-15-2019 at 12:40 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SpiNNeR72
I completely agree also.

However I feel I have to point out my dislike of Balor isn't due to his size, it's his style. Which is why in my post I tried to make the distinction between MY view (which I am happy doesn't agree with others, life would be shit if we all liked the same thing, hell, I have grown to see the Young Bucks as the future style-wise due to their ability to tell a story and use psychology that's on another level but I know many here don't get it) and the fact an already established star is stealing the spot in NXT.

I would feel exactly the same in that respect if it were Owens, Rollins, hell even Big E! Yes, I'd enjoy the matches more but the sentiment is the same.

Also, unless its a swerve, this isn't a "big star comes back to give the rub" scenario. I think there is a real danger Balor really is going to be part of the roster, which is just a damn shame. I just don't see why it's necessary.


Danger? Finn Balor IS officially on the NXT roster. I think it's fine. It brings star power to the NXT brand, particularly now that they're on TV and not just the Network, his style works very well with a lot of the top guys on NXT, and his attitude of "I was Universal and IC champ in the big leagues, you're all beneath me and there's no doubt I'll be NXT champ again" really works for his new heel character.

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SpiNNeR72
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posted on 12-15-2019 at 12:59 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This is the thing. NXT, more than any "brand", doesnt need "star power" - it is doing just fine on its own

If it did, it sure doesn't need a 1980's heat vacuum like Balor.


The whole point of NXT is that it's the building ground, and it has a shitload of talent readt to go. Balor had his chance, and if it wasn't for Joe he would be the joke he should be.

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GodEatGod
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posted on 12-15-2019 at 03:42 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I don't think Balor's there to win the title anyway. Pretty sure he loses his shot thanks to a returning Gargano. To me, he's doing fine, he's not overshadowing anybody and he makes the brand feel more legit. It's fine.





"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey

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posted on 12-15-2019 at 05:19 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Plus it's fun that both shows in the Wednesday Night Wars have ex-Bullet Club members in prominent spots.

The Bullet Club went from imitating the nWo to becoming the new Kliq.

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