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Poll: Which was worse?
SD main event: Kofi loses to Brock in seconds with just one move. 12 (0%) -»
HIAC main event: Seth dominates Bray and they end the match in ref stoppage. 20 (0%) -»
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Author: Subject: Which was worse?
salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-8-2019 at 09:43 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Which was worse?

WWE had a huge week last week with NXT on TV, SD on Fox and a PPV. They did a lot of good shit, but the bad shit they did was pretty fucking bad. Which was worse?

Edited to add: I forgot mabey.

[Edited on 10-8-2019 by salmonjunkie]

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OORick
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posted on 10-9-2019 at 03:27 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
For me, it's the PPV by far.

One will be included in future DVDs and accepted as "canon" in no time. Part of Kofi's amazing year in the spotlight, part of Brock's dominance, part of the mainstream FOXification. No different from a ton of other Brockdowns since his return.

The other was already swept under the rug, it's clear we actually managed to "shame" WWE to some extent. Even they are distancing themselves from it.

One makes perfect sense to me if I put on a WWE Hat and make a business decision. The fact that some fans are pissy is a mild surprise, but it's one you can ride out, because you know you'll be vindicated in the end, thanks to the majority of fans not being so pissy.

The other is an utterly baffling decision that should have been stopped 6 different times for 6 different reasons, and yet, somehow, it was allowed to go forward. WWE can't pretend for one second to be surprised. They should have seen the shit storm coming, and the fact that they didn't is part of the reason why there's no riding it out. How do you not realize that's the EXACT response the HiaC main event gets, unless you are stupid at wrestling?

And WWE isn't stupid at wrestling. Except for when they are. And this was some next level "antagonizing the audience" bullshit that should never have reached the screen. Where's a whistleblower when you need one?

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SpiNNeR72
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posted on 10-9-2019 at 07:18 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Did they do anything bad other than the PPV ending? (Ok, Rusev/Lana, but I guess there is a target audience for that shit somewhere)

If they did, then that was so bad it's already erased everything else from my memory. There is a huge difference between doing something you don't like, and doing something that (as I mentioned on the PPV thread) a 14 year old who hasn't watched a PPV before, knows is stupid.

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williamssl
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posted on 10-9-2019 at 02:36 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
There is “some people being upset by a booking decision”

And there is “something so fucking stupid no one can defend or justify it”



Kofi / Brock is the former. That by definition makes it not the right choice in this poll.





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posted on 10-9-2019 at 05:04 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
HIAC match, just because it's apparently going to lead some fans into turning on Seth just for shits & giggles. Just like happened with Reigns, a top-notch performer in Rollins is going to get crapped on simply because the dopes writing the stories are fucked in the head beyond any hope of repair.
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posted on 10-9-2019 at 07:28 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
PPV by a mile for me.

I’ve never been a huge New Day fan, & while it was awesome to see Kofi get his Wrestlemania moment & win the big one, I was hoping it was going to be a brief run & Eco Warrior Daniel Bryan would get the title back from him. It also felt like Kofimania was sputtering out judging by crowd reactions during his last few PPV matches.

So while it would’ve been cool to see Brock & Kofi have more of a match, the end result was the proper one & it was time for Kofi to drop it.





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CCharger
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posted on 10-9-2019 at 09:18 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Brock and Kofi, while disappointing to many, at least made sense contextually.

The HIAC main event was WCW circa 2000 level of inept fuckery.





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williamssl
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posted on 10-10-2019 at 12:29 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
When I voted it was 6-5 in favor of frickin Kofi/Brock. I don't recall if I tied it or was #5 for HITC but since then 100% of the votes have gone correctly for HITC.

Who the hell actually voted for Brock/Kofi and did you even watch HITC and what "logic" got you to "no, Brock/Kofi was worse"????



Really.





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posted on 10-10-2019 at 01:23 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl
When I voted it was 6-5 in favor of frickin Kofi/Brock. I don't recall if I tied it or was #5 for HITC but since then 100% of the votes have gone correctly for HITC.

Who the hell actually voted for Brock/Kofi and did you even watch HITC and what "logic" got you to "no, Brock/Kofi was worse"????



Really.

I'm guessing it's either people who have an irrational hatred of Brock Lesnar or an irrational love for Vince McMahon.

Or both.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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williamssl
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posted on 10-10-2019 at 02:53 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
And are chickenshit about publicly outing themselves.





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posted on 10-10-2019 at 09:30 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I voted for Kofi vs Brock. I love Brock Lesnar. I like Kofi Kingston but I'm not huge on him. I have an appreciation for Vince McMahon but it's hardly an irrational love as I long ago stopped watching RAW and SmackDown and get my wrestling fix elsewhere because there is so much content out there these days.

I tuned into SmackDown this week because it was debuting on Fox and word was it's presentation was going to get a more "sports-like" overhaul. What I got was a bunch of boring matches and a 5 second squash on Kofi Kingston followed by Dad-Bod Valasquez intimidating the fuck out of Brock Lesnar. After having watched a solid debut by AEW and an incredible episode of NXT that same week - I'll never watch SmackDown again. I don't hate it - it's just not marketed to me.

HitC was a better show than SmackDown which made it's shit ending easier for me to swallow. I agree with everyone that the ending was stupid. That said - the more I think about it, the more the narrative they were trying to sell with the ending makes sense to me. The execution was shit more than anything. In fact - the ONLY thing I'm REALLY annoyed about is that they did a DQ/ref stoppage/whatever-the-fuck-they-are-calling-it to end a Hell in a Cell match.

The booked Beast Slayer Seth Rollins vs Hot-as-Fuck monster Bray Wyatt. Rollins wasn't able to slay this beast despite throwing everything at him. He even resorted to his dark side by using the sledgehammer. The Fiend ultimately bounced back to life unscathed and "murdered" Seth Rollins. There are places I can see this narrative leading to that could potentially provide a satisfying payoff. But there were also MUCH better ways they could have pulled this narrative off.

HitC can still end up as a chapter in a much bigger and more satisfying story.

Brock vs Kofi is leading to Brock vs Valasquez in Saudi Arabia.

I'll take that HitC match any day over that.

[Edited on 10-10-2019 by niles81]

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posted on 10-10-2019 at 06:36 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Brock/Kofi buried Kofi for a guy who shows up once a quarter.

Seth/Bray was a bad decision that won't affect either guy in a few weeks. It's no different than that Bray/Orton match or any other number of mind numbing main event booking decisions WWE has made.

Kofi will barely, if ever, again sniff a main event title.

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shashwat mishra
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 07:10 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
In any universe Brock Lesnar defeats Kofi Kingston from a credibility perspective. However, Kofi should have had a respectable 15 minute match.

Vince was forced to give Kofi a run with the top belt as that is what fans wanted. This was Vince's revenge.

The guy had The Rock job to Stone Cold 20 times (more?) in a row before giving him 1 meaningless victory when Austin and Rock were both saying goodbye. And his apologists sell it as a "great rivalry". The Rock succeeded everywhere mostly because of his own terrific charisma and buy in with global audiences.

Remember Naomi's run as champ? Booker T's?

Racism exists in the WWE. It was true for Hollywood. How could it not be true for a wrestling company? Non whites are mostly stereotypes/freaks/jokes/poorly handled/poorly written. There can be an exception but everyone understands the norm.

Things will probably change over time.





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G. Jonah Jameson
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 02:32 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shashwat mishra
In any universe Brock Lesnar defeats Kofi Kingston from a credibility perspective. However, Kofi should have had a respectable 15 minute match.

Vince was forced to give Kofi a run with the top belt as that is what fans wanted. This was Vince's revenge.

The guy had The Rock job to Stone Cold 20 times (more?) in a row before giving him 1 meaningless victory when Austin and Rock were both saying goodbye. And his apologists sell it as a "great rivalry". The Rock succeeded everywhere mostly because of his own terrific charisma and buy in with global audiences.

Remember Naomi's run as champ? Booker T's?

Racism exists in the WWE. It was true for Hollywood. How could it not be true for a wrestling company? Non whites are mostly stereotypes/freaks/jokes/poorly handled/poorly written. There can be an exception but everyone understands the norm.

Things will probably change over time.


I mean, not that WWE's history isn't full of regrettable stereotypes, and not that Vince McMahon hasn't been shown to be pretty racist on innumerable occasions, but I keep reading this argument that the quick loss to Brock Lesnar was some sort of punishment for Kofi Kingston, and I don't see it. If McMahon and the WWE powers that be were looking to hurt Kingston for getting over, he wouldn't have held the WWE Title for six months. I mean, we were all predicting he'd lose it right back to Daniel Bryan after a month or so, weren't we? And yet he held onto it for half a year, cleanly winning title feuds over three very viable contenders and Dolph Ziggler.

Look at it this way: Kingston's run as WWE Champion was 180 days. That's just two days less than Roman Reigns has accumulated across three WWE Title reigns and one Universal Title reign. Kingston was booked strong for his entire title reign, but it was never going to last forever and Lesnar was a logical endpoint for it. That the match ended so quickly is 100% about how they book Lesnar, not about how they book Kingston.

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salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 04:10 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I voted for Kofi, probably because I was personally more disappointed by the squash then I was let down by how stupid the HIAC match was. I don't hate Brock, I don't hate that Cain was brought out right after this, either. Maybe it's because I was such a big fan of Kofi as champ. But at the end of it all, Kofi will be ok.

I also don't think the HIAC is going to mess up either Seth or Bray's careers - it might make Seth get some boos for a while, but he'll still be at the top of the card. I also don't think the squash hurts Kofi's career either, because I think he'll still be sniffing the main event for a while, and if anything, it can potentially be referenced to in future storylines. Kofi being squashed twice by Lesnar now (Tokyo special and SD Fox premiere) potentially makes it interesting if and when they have Kofi face Brock a third time, which hopefully would be on a PPV for the WWE or Universal Championship.

The HIAC they'll be able to sweep under the rug, and the idea behind it (Seth throws everything including the kitchen sink at Bray, Bray still destroys Seth, but somehow, keep the belt with Seth) was not a bad idea, but there was so much bad in the match. The red lighting was god awful, how they told the story of Seth doing everything he could to stop Bray was told terribly - way overdone - and the ref stoppage idea and the way it was executed was extremely stupid. There were so many things that they (management, producers, maybe even Seth and Bray but I fault them the least in this) could have done differently in this match that could have had the same result of the story they were trying to say and not be such a shit show.

I guess now that I've laid it all out in front of me a few days later, HIAC was the worse one. But I was actually more upset at the Kofi one at the time I made the poll/voted.

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posted on 10-11-2019 at 04:17 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
What was wrong with Booker T's title reign?

He held it for like 4 months, was treated as a big deal, and despite being a World Champion from SD he got to headline one of the big 4 ppvs. King Booker was awesome.

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salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 05:38 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shashwat mishra
In any universe Brock Lesnar defeats Kofi Kingston from a credibility perspective. However, Kofi should have had a respectable 15 minute match.

Vince was forced to give Kofi a run with the top belt as that is what fans wanted. This was Vince's revenge.

The guy had The Rock job to Stone Cold 20 times (more?) in a row before giving him 1 meaningless victory when Austin and Rock were both saying goodbye. And his apologists sell it as a "great rivalry". The Rock succeeded everywhere mostly because of his own terrific charisma and buy in with global audiences.

Remember Naomi's run as champ? Booker T's?

Racism exists in the WWE. It was true for Hollywood. How could it not be true for a wrestling company? Non whites are mostly stereotypes/freaks/jokes/poorly handled/poorly written. There can be an exception but everyone understands the norm.

Things will probably change over time.


While I won't disagree on racism or even white-privledge-tendencies in the WWE's past, I don't necessarily agree with this on Kofi's squash. I don't think it's Vince's "revenge" more that it's both WWE and FOX wanting Brock as the top of Smackdown and to have the Brock and Cain storyline set for Crown Jewel. I mean, the guy they had beating up the white guy at the end of Smackdown was a Mexican guy.

I think the Rock/Stone Cold situation is way overthought here. I'd love to look at the actual numbers at some point, but when I look back at this feud, it's hard for me to recall who won more or lost more (and who was face and heel during those wins/losses time) but I do remember it being a feud for the ages.

Wasn't Naomi's run as champ sidelined by injuries? Booker T's run was awesome - he not only headlined PPVs, but he was the winner of that first three-way world champions match between him, Cena, and Lashley. King Booker was such a success that they gave him a ton of screen time and had him crossover to the other shows back when there wasn't a lot of cross over.

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shashwat mishra
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 05:52 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
To answer Salmonjunkie's Rock vs Austin stats, here is a list as per this source: https://www.cagematch.net/?id=91&nr=1&page=2&constellation=Singles

30.03.2003 World Wrestling Entertainment The Rock defeats Steve Austin (17:52)
WWE WrestleMania XIX - "Dare To Dream" - Pay Per View @ Safeco Field in Seattle, Washington, USA

03.11.2001 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin (c) defeats The Rock (22:09)
WWF Rebellion 2001 - Pay Per View @ Evening News Arena in Manchester, England, UK

01.04.2001 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF World Heavyweight Title No Disqualification: Steve Austin defeats The Rock (c) (28:08) - TITLE CHANGE !!!
WWF WrestleMania X-7 - " Houston... We Have A Problem" - Pay Per View @ Reliant Astrodome in Houston, Texas, USA

25.04.1999 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF World Heavyweight Title No Holds Barred Match (Special Referee: Shane McMahon): Steve Austin (c) defeats The Rock (17:07)
WWF Backlash 1999 - Pay Per View @ Providence Civic Center in Providence, Rhode Island, USA

28.03.1999 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF World Heavyweight Title No Disqualification: Steve Austin defeats The Rock (c) (16:52) - TITLE CHANGE !!!
WWF WrestleMania XV - "The Ragin' Climax" - Pay Per View @ First Union Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

16.11.1998 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF World Heavyweight Title: Steve Austin defeats The Rock (c) by DQ (6:00)
WWF RAW is WAR #286 - TV-Show @ Rupp Arena in Lexington, Kentucky, USA

17.03.1998 World Wrestling Entertainment Steve Austin defeats The Rock (10:44)
WWF RAW is WAR #252 - TV-Show @ Convention Center in Tucson, Arizona, USA

07.12.1997 World Wrestling Entertainment WWF Intercontinental Title: Steve Austin (c) defeats The Rock (5:37)
WWF In Your House 19: D-Generation X - Pay Per View @ Springfield Civic Center in Springfield, Massachusetts, USA

This list may not be exhaustive. But you get the gist.

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shashwat mishra
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posted on 10-11-2019 at 06:08 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Booker T's Pay Per View Stats

https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=642&page=22&type=byOpponent&eventType=Pay+Per+View&sortby=colMatches&sorttype=DESC

Take it for what you will but check out the stats against the guys he fought the most.





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posted on 10-11-2019 at 07:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The King Booker character was popular and got lots of TV time, but he never won convincingly. And granted, he was a heel, so maybe he shouldn't have been. But in terms of in-ring success, his World Heavyweight Title reign wasn't much. All the high-profile matches he won, he got the pinfall without having delivered the final blow (Rey Mysterio got KOed with a chair by Chavo Guerrero, Finlay ate a Batista Bomb before getting pinned in a fatal four-way and John Cena took a belt shot from Kevin goddamn Federline), and he only survived Batista the first time by getting himself disqualified.

Naomi's second run with the SmackDown! Women's Title was fine (and you can barely count the first one, since it's not WWE's fault she got hurt during the title match). It wasn't especially remarkable, but that's mostly an effect of SmackDown!'s underwhelming women's division at the time.

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