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Author: Subject: Jon Moxley Explains Why He Left WWE
CCharger
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 02:37 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Jon Moxley Explains Why He Left WWE

I was going to put this in Rumor Crap, but there is just too much info, so here is the link:

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2019/05/jon-moxley-details-why-he-left-wwe-654613/

TL;DR:

Moxley couldn't put up with the stupid promos that he was forced to deliver.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 06:06 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Before clicking, I’ll stand by the notion that his late-2014 promo with the hacksaw and dummy single-handedly did irreparable damage to his on-camera persona, and effectively, his career going forward.
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CCharger
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 07:10 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Yeah, it sounds like Vince wanted him to be "kooky" rather than "crazed".





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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Count Zero
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 07:59 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I just mentioned this in the Rumors Crappening because I'm not awake enough to read the bOOard yet. I'll leave my mention there, however, because everybody needs a good laugh and I don't mind if it's at my expense.
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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 08:46 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Good for Mox to say this out loud for everyone to hear. Despite what too many clods in the IWC think, it's about more than cashing a big pay-cheque. The talent regards themselves as professionals that don't want to be made to look like idiots just to satisfy the moronic pee-pee poo-poo sense of humour of the nutty old man sitting in the chairman's seat. The only thing extra I'd hope that comes from this is that Sasha Banks was essentially saying the same thing with her blow-up/walk-out after Wrestlemania, and there's a lot of people who are still giving her shit for it at the exact same time they're slapping Moxley on the back for giving it to WWE. If someone says, as per Gail Kim, that they're "with the talent" in these things then they better be with all the talent and not just their personal favourites because right now it's ALL of the WWE talent who are being subjected to Vince's endless idiocy.

[Edited on 5/29/2019 by Paddlefoot]





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GodEatGod
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 09:25 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Maybe the best 'shoot' interview I've heard in a long time. Moxley doesn't come off as bitter or unhappy with his push or his payoffs (although he has a few of those, too), but mostly as just someone creatively stifled. And he's very specific in his criticisms regarding the process, the bureaucracy and, yeah, Vince. The picture he paints is that WWE's creative process has grown stagnant, new structures built on top of old structures, with everything being filtered through Vince's voice. And Vince's voice isn't fresh anymore. He mentions those terrible gasmask promos he did and all that stuff comes straight from Vince and you could TELL it all comes straight from Vince, because he loves the 'you people' disgust/trashing cheap heat stuff so much that he can't keep it out of his work.

I think that's why, say, the Firefly Funhouse stuff seems to work so well - because it's an outside voice, with them contracting some of the creative to actual horror movie pros (along with showing a lot of trust in Bray himself), and they've come up with something that feels genuine and different and not just new paint on the same tropes.

And another thing Mox makes clear is that the people there KNOW. They know this isn't working well, they know some of the problems built into the system they have, but they feel powerless to do anything about it. Vince is gonna Vince (and they mention that, like the master carnie he is, he can often talk people into things that they know are terrible).

I just found the whole thing really revealing and interesting. Great stuff.





"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey

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CCharger
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 09:47 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I seem to remember hearing that it was actually Stephanie who began insisting that all promos be scripted rather than ad libbed. If I am not mistaken, prior to the mid-2000s, wrestlers were given a general outline with key bulleted points that they were supposed to hit. The rest was basically improvised. At that point, when Stephanie McMahon began overseeing the Creative Team, she began requiring all promos to be written out, memorized, and delivered word for word. The reasoning at the time was that with a TV-PG rating and being a publically traded entertainment company, they didn't want anyone going rogue and saying something they shouldn't. Still, multiple wrestlers have complained about this including Punk, Austin, Jericho, and now Ambrose. Essentially, all the older guys who did it the old way, and all the younger guys who came up through the indie system rather than pure WWE developmental products.

I think this is the general gist, but I welcome anyone to correct me.

Frankly, I think it would go a long way to allowing the guys (and gals) to go back to the old way (here's a list of things you should mention and some suggestions on how to deliver it) rather than have some writer monkey try to imagine what your character would say for you.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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DevilSoprano
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 10:16 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The biggest problem isn't that they are scripted, it's that they are scripted through and for Vince instead of allowing his talents to have more of a say. If you allow talents to write their own promos that only have to be checked for a standards and practices guideline instead of in addition to a Vince guideline, I'd have to think they'd at least enjoy that a little more. And then as you find out who is and isn't capable of being creative and trustworthy on their own, you can use writers to chip-in. WWE writers should be there to handle broad strokes as to where stories are going and consistency from week to week and show to show while allowing the in-ring talent to handle the minutiae of promos and and daily storytelling.
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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 10:39 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Shows how deep the paranoia is inside the WWE system if they're forcing the talent to go word-by-word on scripts because they're totally terrified that one of them will go nuts during a promo. Maybe treat them better, and not treat them like idiots or dopey trained seals, and there'd be no need to fear anything like that happening at all.

Some of the writers and others involve in Creative who have departed over the years have indicated that it's not some of the ideas that are given to Vince that are bad. It's more that Vince alters them to make the ideas extra-stupid with what he wants said. Moxley's interview basically confirms this to be true.





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salmonjunkie
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 11:05 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Sufferin' succotash!
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GodEatGod
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 11:27 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
Some of the writers and others involve in Creative who have departed over the years have indicated that it's not some of the ideas that are given to Vince that are bad. It's more that Vince alters them to make the ideas extra-stupid with what he wants said. Moxley's interview basically confirms this to be true.


The example from the interview I thought illustrated this best was the 'pooper scoooper' detail. Moxley didn't want to do any of the corny dialogue in that promo, but both he and the writer himself knew they had to get 'pooper scooper' out of it before Vince read it because it was the precise sort of small, silly thing that would catch his eye and he'd fall in love with it and then the whole promo would be about poop.

As Moxley points out, remember, we're all professionals and adults and this is what we're talking about.

Vince is just stale and oddly childish in his tastes and anything that goes through him (which is pretty much everything) has to somehow survive without him imprinting himself into it. And it was remarkably clear that EVERYONE WHO WORKS THERE ALREADY KNOWS THIS.





"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-29-2019 at 11:37 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
It seems that even if they're aware of it the worst frustration is that when they add their input it goes in one of Vince's ears and right out the other. Or that he nods his head approvingly while they're talking to him but then changes it at the last minute because of some brainfart he has just before the show goes on air. Or, even worse, he says he agrees with their idea but it really just lying outright to their face and has no intention at all of ever implementing their suggestions.

That's the vibe I've always had with the current Sasha Banks situation, that he told her one thing and she found out at the last second that it was just another lie. Pretty sure every single one of us has worked for at least one of these kinds of sociopaths in our adult lives, and that all of them hide behind that "what's best for business" claptrap they use to cover up that, no matter what they say in front of someone, they're simply not going to ever allow anyone else any contribution on how the owner gets to play with his toy, not even when in WWE's case it's because of what those people in the ring do for him that Vince even has the toy at all.





Hey bitches! Screw ALL of you! - heel Bayley, Oct 11 2019

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CCharger
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 12:00 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Meltzer and others have been reporting about "total re-writes" of the script occurring right before the show goes on. It's one of the reason Road Dogg stepped away.

If I were running the show...haha...I'd have the creative team brush out in broad strokes what's going to happen in 12 months. Kind of a general overview of all all the major storylines. Then sketch our in finer details the upcoming month and then really script each weekly show in detail while allowing the performers input throughout the process.

Frankly, I've booked wrestling for TV before (small, small, small indie show on public access but still). We had to tape 3 weeks worth of shows in two hours. It takes some organization and imagination but you don't have to be a "genius" to do it. And you sure as fuck don't need a team of a dozen Hollywood writers and creative writing majors to do it either.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 12:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Agree. Aside from unexpected injuries or a sudden absence caused by personal issues derailing a plotline there's no excuse for not having everything in place well before a show airs.

[Edited on 5/29/2019 by Paddlefoot]





Hey bitches! Screw ALL of you! - heel Bayley, Oct 11 2019

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CCharger
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 01:40 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Tony Khan regarding AEW and their non-use of scripted promos:

"People can spot a phony, and I think young people can spot a phony. I think young people can spot when people believe what they are saying and when people aren't believing what they are saying, and when I was a kid, I really did believe what Ric Flair and Randy Savage and Bret Hart said in their promos. I think there has to be some believability."

"When you see a guy reading off a teleprompter or a mental teleprompter, just trying to recite a script or trying to look up in the air when you forget a line...it is hard to suspend disbelief when the wrestler doesn't believe in the real-life situation that is unfolding."





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 01:44 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Listened to the whole thing. Very good, and Jericho did a great job of just letting Jon talk. Here’s my notes from the show:

Gives props to WWE for the 8 years, and expresses his gratitude for the opportunities. Brings up Make A Wish, and how important that is.

Talks about wanting to leave the right way. Lots of guys and gals should listen to this and take notice.

Mentions Renee multiple times. Based on this and past interviews Renee has given, sounds like those two are a great couple.

Vince gonna Vince is a real issue. Points out that many of the writers and others know that the things Vince wants suck. Mentions that Vince wants to control everything and everyone. Mentions Vince keeps giving Brock money, because Vince wants to control Brock. Mentions that Vince won’t hand over controls, but just not micro managing everything would help so much.

Michael Hayes seems to be a Vince yes man.

Oddly points out he trusted Triple H not to pull anything on him...I say oddly because, you know, Montreal. Also mentions that with Hunter there is wiggle room in promos.

Points out the old timers saying guys are afraid of Vince is wrong. Points out that at the end of day, you try to do your best with what you are given, because Vince writes your cheque.

Points out he had hope things might change, even after he knew he would leave. Mentions he hoped his time off due to energy would recharge him. Really brings home how the choice to leave wasn’t made irrationally.

Using Roman’s cancer really bothered him, and Vince pushing it on him was too much to take.

It really sounded like Jonathan Good would have remained in WWE and do great things there, but all the Vince gonna Vince BS was too much.

Oh and the “hello Renee!” thing was hilarious. Almost as funny, Jericho saying when he was paid $750 for a show, he wondered if he should set up a table like Virgil in the back for autographs. Just as funny, the Hermie the Elf reference.

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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 04:17 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Basically, the next time anyone defends WWE and it’s handling of guys in terms of their promo or characters, and saying that a lot of it is on the wrestlers being able to “make it work”, well....

Go take a shot of bleach.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-30-2019 at 04:21 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Via hypodermic, directly into a major artery.





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posted on 5-30-2019 at 05:25 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Re: the promos... that's the exact reason I hated Ronda Rousey's in ring promos. I said it before-- it sounded like it she was reciting something written by someone who had just received a thesaurus for Christmas. She would deliver it passionately, but every word out of her mouth sounded so damn fake.





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posted on 5-30-2019 at 05:28 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I did notice that despite all of the things that he had said about Vince and the creative process inside the WWE, he didn't seem to have anything negative to say about Triple H.





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posted on 5-30-2019 at 05:52 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
I seem to remember hearing that it was actually Stephanie who began insisting that all promos be scripted rather than ad libbed. If I am not mistaken, prior to the mid-2000s, wrestlers were given a general outline with key bulleted points that they were supposed to hit. The rest was basically improvised. At that point, when Stephanie McMahon began overseeing the Creative Team, she began requiring all promos to be written out, memorized, and delivered word for word. The reasoning at the time was that with a TV-PG rating and being a publically traded entertainment company, they didn't want anyone going rogue and saying something they shouldn't. Still, multiple wrestlers have complained about this including Punk, Austin, Jericho, and now Ambrose. Essentially, all the older guys who did it the old way, and all the younger guys who came up through the indie system rather than pure WWE developmental products.




I'm going off memory but I think your timeline is wrong. WWE went TV-PG in 08-09 and Stephanie replacing the old guard and bringing a crew of Hollywood writers to script everything happened like in late 2004. Going PG made them even more strict, but even before then improvised character work was reserved for top guys who had leeway.

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Count Zero
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posted on 5-31-2019 at 04:00 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
According to Rumorz And Crap, the MoxCast has set off tremors of "Yeah, I agree" with the current WWEmployee base, but also aftershocks of "Vince is gonna Vince, soooo.."

In normal language: there might be more people willing to move on from the WWE lifestyle, but it seems that many have already realized how things are and have developed coping mechanisms.

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CCharger
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posted on 5-31-2019 at 04:07 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
According to Rumorz And Crap, the MoxCast has set off tremors of "Yeah, I agree" with the current WWEmployee base, but also aftershocks of "Vince is gonna Vince, soooo.."

In normal language: there might be more people willing to move on from the WWE lifestyle, but it seems that many have already realized how things are and have developed coping mechanisms.

Or the ones who are “coping” and and saying “Vince is gonna Vince...” are employees that haven’t worked anywhere other than WWE. The ones who have experienced a world outside of Vince are more likely to think it’s fucked.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 5-31-2019 at 04:54 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
On their own podcast Bubba Ray and Tommy Dreamer said that with all the options out there the talent can now start looking at WWE as the beginning of their career instead of the top of the mountain. That might be a bit premature, until we have a better indication of how well AEW will work out in the long term. But it's clear that the other companies are offering the performers a happier workplace just by allowing them creative input and by not making them look like idiots because of some old guy's whims. That obviously means a lot more now than it did back in the old days, or at least it means as much to the wrestlers now as making WWE-grade money does.





Hey bitches! Screw ALL of you! - heel Bayley, Oct 11 2019

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GodEatGod
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posted on 5-31-2019 at 05:29 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I think there are also just different levels of ambition from performer to performer. Some probably aren't that interested in the creative aspects and just enjoy performing and don't take whatever angles or push they have that seriously. Some do, obviously, and those with that kind of passion are going to have the hardest time in that sort of corporate environment. And there are some people who are thriving and succeeding in it, at least according to their own metrics. I don't think Becky Lynch or Seth Rollins feel particularly stifled at the moment, although both likely have in the past.

Don't get me wrong, everything Mox described was pretty shitty and makes Vince look like an idiot monkey. But people want different things out of their jobs.





"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey

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