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Author: Subject: Captain Marvel (with spoilers)
the goon
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posted on 3-9-2019 at 11:08 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Captain Marvel (with spoilers)

I know Flash already touched on the movie in the Movie Round Up thread, but I figured I'd go ahead and start a dedicated Captain Marvel thread where we can get all spoilery. I just saw it today and overall really enjoyed it. I was kind of so-so with it for about the first 10 to 15 minutes, but once she gets to Earth and the story starts rolling, I was fully onboard. Overall, I'd probably rank Captain Marvel at about an 8/10 and Brie Larson is just so damn likable that it's hard not to enjoy this movie. A whole bunch of random thoughts:

-They pulled a bit of a swerve with the Skrulls actually not being villains, didn't they? Though I'm glad they went in this direction, because I really didn't want to see them do some kind of "Hawkeye's been a Skrull for the past ten years!" retcon. Also, it makes sense as to why Nick Fury never mentioned them before, as they were only on Earth for a couple of days and then probably never seen again.

-Loved all of the 90's stuff, but it did make me feel old as fuck to see all of that played up as "retro," since I was a teenager during that time.

-I wasn't expecting the Tesseract to pop up, so that was pretty cool. And man, if you follow it's lineage through all of the MCU movies, that thing has been through some shit.

-Stan Lee reading the script for Mallrats is probably a reference that not many people will get in the year 2019, but I thought it was great (and it made me wonder if that was the first time we saw the "real" Stan Lee in the MCU). The all-Stan Marvel intro was a really nice tribute too.

-I'm wondering if it will be explained why Carol hasn't aged between 1995 and when she shows back up on Earth in present day (in Endgame) or if we're just to assume her powers have slowed her aging.

-So Nick Fury lost his eye to an alien cat? Huh.

-Speaking of Fury, I liked the end part with him coming up with the Avengers Initiative, but the timeline doesn't quite add up to me...if this was 1995, it means that 13 years passed before he met Tony Stark in the first Iron Man, and probably another year or so passed after that before the Avengers actually became a thing. So what exactly was Fury doing during all those years with his Avengers plan, unless he put it on the back burner due to not being able to find any super-powered beings?

-You could hear a few gasps in the theater when Cap and company showed up in the first end credits scene and when Captain Marvel herself appeared, a black dude loudly yelled "oh shoot!" and it was fucking hilarious.

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Flash
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posted on 3-12-2019 at 05:51 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Glad you went spoilery; I try to keep the "review" thread spoiler free, so I very much welcome a forum where we can let fly.

*Nick Fury's eye... When he got it all banged up in the car crash I remember thinking to myself that it would be a funny through line if he kept sustaining injuries to that side of his face... kind of keep you in suspense for a second thinking is this it? Is this how Fury loses his eye... only for it to ultimately be something ridiculously mundane. They played it a bit more straight than I maybe would have, but did kind of make it something ridiculous as the cat didn't scratch him until after all the action was over.

*Yeah very much dug the Skrull swerve... I went in expecting Yon Rogg to be secretly in league with them or something like that; So the (can you call it a) swerve was welcome.

*As for what Fury had been up to between 1995 and Iron man I think there's a possible explanation in Hulk when Ross and Blonsky they are going through the base... lot's and lots of weapons and gadgets around; which would make sense for a guy like Fury to try and build a better soldier first before going further outside the box. Hawkeye and Widow were kicking around; Not super powered mind you, but that could fit in with my above hypothesis. Fury didn't seem to have much interest in the Hulk, but he likely pre-dates Iron Man... The army was more on his trail, but one would suspect Fury would know about him and the project (which again you could use to support my hypothesis as Ross was mucking around with gene altered soldiers, which is how Blonsky eventually became the Abomination). You could also go back a bit too... Ant Man opens in 1989 with Shield trying to get the Ant-Man tech; Yeah it's pre-Captain Marvel, but it could've continued for a bit after too thematically I mean. Then there's always the unknown... We've got about 20 years to fill in, but let's not forget that Fury would be doing things alone mostly, with a Shield increasingly co-opted by Hydra from within, while trying to sell the threat of a possible alien invasion or threat that only he and a few others saw.

*I'd love to see a map of the Tesseract... but here's what I can come up with:
-Odin I do believe is referenced as hiding the Tesseract on Earth
-The Red Skull gets his hands on it in WWII, ending with Cap stopping him.
-I can't remember where I read or saw it, but I think there's a reference to Howard Stark finding it while looking for Cap... From there it winds up in Project Pegasus's hands (which if you're a long time Marvel comics reader Pegasus's gets up to some crazy stuff usually involving the FF's The Thing... The Cosmic Cube (aka the Tesseract even though they aren't the same really) and the Serpent Crown)
-Dr. Lawson... which was a nice swerve to turn out to be Captain Mar-Vell aka the original Marvel incarnation of Captain Marvel and a male originally... gets her hands on it to power an engine, which in turn creates the Danvers Marvel.
-A space cat eats it.
-Fury has the space cat, and fast forward 20 years shows it to Dr. Selvig before Loki gets his hands on it.
-Thor takes it back to Asgard where with the destruction of Asgard ultimately leads to it winding up in Thanos's big gold mitten of doom.

Lot's of years to be filled in if they wanted to make the Tesseract Marvel's version of the travelling pants, but yeah... it's seen some shit go down.

*Love the Lee cameo... Apparently Smith was online saying he broke down in tears... THINK about this now... All Kevin Smith movies are potentially in canon for Marvel now, which makes the DD appearance in Jay and Silent Bob strike back all the stranger given that this would be about 15-20 years before Matt Murdoch opted to become Daredevil.

*I actually teared up a bit at Carol's line about "who ever said I needed to prove myself to you" (or something to that effect after she blasted Yon Rogg)... Such a girl power moment.

*As for why Carol may not have aged there was a line in the movie that might explain it when they talked about her biology being mixed with the Kree (although her real origin with the blast could also account for changes) and she's stronger, faster and will live longer... So perhaps that means less aging?

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the goon
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posted on 3-13-2019 at 06:58 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Nice recap of the Tesseract's adventures Flash, I think you pretty much hit all the happenings that have been shown onscreen thus far.

And you lay out a plausible timeline for what Fury was up to between 1995 and 2008, but I guess my thing is that it's like he went 13 years with nothing and then suddenly was able to form the Avengers with Iron Man, Cap, Thor, and company all within like a year. But hey, in the grand scheme of the MCU, it's a minor qualm.

quote:
Originally posted by Flash
*Love the Lee cameo... Apparently Smith was online saying he broke down in tears... THINK about this now... All Kevin Smith movies are potentially in canon for Marvel now, which makes the DD appearance in Jay and Silent Bob strike back all the stranger given that this would be about 15-20 years before Matt Murdoch opted to become Daredevil.


Ha, yeah I didn't really think about all the 4th-wall-breaking weirdness that comes into play if we consider that Kevin Smith's movies, with all of their Marvel comics references, exist in the MCU.

quote:
Originally posted by Flash
*As for why Carol may not have aged there was a line in the movie that might explain it when they talked about her biology being mixed with the Kree (although her real origin with the blast could also account for changes) and she's stronger, faster and will live longer... So perhaps that means less aging?


I stumbled across the answer on Reddit and you're right about the Kree thing...apparently getting a transfusion of Kree blood has slowed down the aging process in Carol.





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posted on 3-13-2019 at 05:13 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I really enjoyed the movie, the Mar-Vell twist I didn't see coming as I avoid spoilers and wikipedia for these things like the plague. I honestly thought going in that Jude Law was going to be Mar-Vell.

I liked the Avenger name as her callsign and thought it was a nice tie in, but I'd sort of hoped it would be Warbird as a nod to her old name in the comics. Obviously it would've had to change how he came up with the Avengers name.

I'm a big fan of Agents of SHIELD and really liked seeing rookie Coulson as his first mission, and sort of the foundation of how he and Fury got to build the kind of trust they have. I wish he'd done more, maybe gone with them into space or something.

Anything else is just minor nerd quibbling, and overall, good movie.





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posted on 3-14-2019 at 04:34 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I know it was only a minor quibble on your part Goon, but thinking about how the... let's call it "Age of heroes" kind of kicks off there is a certain organic-ness to it.... aka it got stuck in my craw and I "think" I can kinda work it out...

I mean in story it's a universe with things like magic, time travel, differing dimensions, aliens, gods, and other as of yet discovered/revealed cosmic level powers... So there could be an element of fate or destiny being at work to usher in a heroic age to face a universal level threat like Thanos. Kind of a ying to the yang or whatever.

Heck, given the proximity that all the stories being told perhaps heroes are drawn to the infinity stones... in particular the Tesseract?

As for the rest... yeah there's a feel of the big names suddenly stepping up to the plate, but it doesn't mean there wasn't stuff still going on... More a case of who the "narrator" is choosing to focus on than nothing going on.

A bit of a timeline...

*Thor's been around for centuries worshipped on Earth along with the rest of the Aesir... He ultimate winds up on the board because that's where Odin sent him; You could call it a knowing on Odin's part where he's killing two birds with one stone; teaching his petulant kid a lesson and putting him on the path he needs to be on... or it's a coincidence that he's put on Earth stripped of his powers; a place where again the Aesir have the most ties, and also look the most like.

*Captain America was active in or around 1944-1945 before going into the ice for an extended sleep. In the comics he was found by the Avengers after Namor tossed him when a bunch of Eskimos were worshipping him, but I don't know that it was ever said how Fury et al found him... He woke up and it was said he'd been asleep for 70 years. It could be just as likely in the MCU they found Cap, kept him on ice to study him and when Fury found him woke him up?

*Hulk clearly predates his movie as Banner's been on the run for a while now... I can't remember if it's been years or whatnot, but I'd guess it predates Iron Man's debut just given how close the movies are in time.

*Ant-Man (1) retires in 1989 and was active for a while before quitting.

*Captain Marvel was in 1995

*We have no timeline for Hawkeye and Black Widow but again from anecdotal stories it's likely been years.

*Iron man debut in 2008 roughly

*You could also point to other Black Panther's being active, like T'Chaka as seen in the opening scenes of Black Panther.

So what you kind of get is...

*1945 to let's say 1970-something no known heroes.
*1970 something to 1989 antman
*1995 Captain Marvel
*1995-2005 Fury and other military working on superhuman and tech stuff; possibly as of yet unknown heroes around
*2004 or 2005 Hulk created
*2008 Iron Man
*2009 Cap found and Thor banished to earth
*2010 the Avengers

Yeah there's gaps, but I think (and I get that this is super geeky over analyzing) you could point to the choice of stories being told not ruling out other heroes being active, and that many of the Avengers were actually around, or at least appeared organically... Captain America is really the only one that kind of just wakes up at the right time.

Thoughts?

ETA: Just did some checking and the Hulk accident happened 5 years before the events of the movie and they were trying to recreate the super soldier program that gave the world Cap, so the 13 year window shrinks a bit more... I also had the thought of Star Lord; he was also active pre-Iron man too.

[Edited on 3-14-2019 by Flash]

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posted on 3-14-2019 at 06:17 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. I agree with goon that it was a bit slow until we got to earth, but from then on out I enjoyed every moment. Brie and Sammy J had great chemistry together. I was concerned about digitally de-aging Jackson, but I didn't even notice it in the movie. I'm a big fan of the Kelly Sue DeConnick run on Captain Marvel so I had high hopes for the movie and I thought they pretty much nailed it.

The tesseract showing up was a moment of brilliance for me.

Mostly enjoyed the 90s nostalgia and music.

I was really hoping they followed through on the Flerken storyline from the comics and was thrilled when they did.

Didn't see the Mar Vell twist coming but thought it made perfect sense. Like Mayhem, I assumed it was going to be Jude Law. Also didn't predict the Skrulls getting a faceturn, but that was mostly cause I assumed Secret Invasion was a likely choice for the next phase of Marvel movies

My main complaint would be that some of the girl power stuff was a bit too on the nose. It felt a little old-fashioned (first waveish maybe?) in that it order to prove how feminist it was it had Captain Marvel be the most powerful and 100% morally correct. That said, if Avengers Endgame is going to cycle out some of the Avengers, Captain Marvel is perfectly positioned to step into Captain America's role of the moral compass who is interesting not because they may make an immoral choice, but because the world is complex enough that deciding what is moral isn't clear cut.

Not sure how high it'll go in my MCU rankings, but it was a very enjoyable movie.

ETA: The timeline stuff is a legit complaint, but nothing anything I care that much about. I think Flash laid out quite well why it mostly fits. When dealing with complex continuities and attempts at retconning I'm willing to cut some slack as long as it 95% fits logically. I can give the last little bit up to artistic license to fudge some stuff in order to tell the best story.

Also loved the Mallrats/Stan Lee cameo. Kevin Smith has been such a standard bearer for geek culture for decades now that he deserved that type of shout out. The Stan Leeing of the Marvel Logo sequence also made me very happy.

[Edited on 3-14-2019 by TownOfDalem]





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posted on 3-14-2019 at 06:41 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Angry incel sort of fellas in deep distress as feminazi Captain Marvel sails well past the $500 million mark at the box office. Oh, my, all the online courses in alpha-male awesomeness I bought from Roosh V never prepared me for anything like this.





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posted on 3-15-2019 at 03:33 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The tesseract jumping all over the place is still easier to swallow than Hydra targeting Dr Strange before he discovered magic because according to Kevin Fiege he was rebellious and smart. I'll always believe that's a retcon and back then they were intending to introduce Strange in full wizard mode.

Anyway, Captain Marvel was really fun. The villians were meh, but Carol, Fury and Talos easily carried the movie and I hope Talos pops up again.

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posted on 3-15-2019 at 09:04 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by First 9
The tesseract jumping all over the place is still easier to swallow than Hydra targeting Dr Strange before he discovered magic because according to Kevin Fiege he was rebellious and smart. I'll always believe that's a retcon and back then they were intending to introduce Strange in full wizard mode.


Agreed, I think that was a rare gaff on Marvel's part, where Strange's name was mentioned as kind of an Easter egg/teaser before they really had a plan in place for a Doctor Strange movie.

quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem
My main complaint would be that some of the girl power stuff was a bit too on the nose.


Yeah, for as much as I enjoyed the movie and 100% support a female lead in a MCU movie, when "Just A Girl" by No Doubt came on during the final battle scene, I just kind of thought "come on...really?"

And Flash, good job with your Nick Fury timeline. Even though I still think going from 1995 to 2008 before the Avengers Initiative actually becomes a thing is a bit too long, you laid out some nice groundwork as to what was going on during that time. Also, in a universe that contains a talking raccoon, a teenager with spider powers, and Thor being an actual being, I suppose I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that it took Nick Fury 13 years to get his Avengers idea off the ground.

Also, something I completely forgot to mention in my first post: I noticed that at no point in the movie does anyone refer to Carol as "Captain Marvel." I was kind of waiting for Nick Fury to come up with the name at the end, but it never happened. So while browsing the comments on Reddit today about the new Endgame trailer, somebody theorized that she wasn't called Captain Marvel yet because at the end of Endgame, she'll take that name from two fallen heroes: Captain America and Mar-vell. And dammit, that's a really intriguing theory that also hit me right in the feels.





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posted on 3-15-2019 at 08:07 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the goon
quote:
Originally posted by First 9
The tesseract jumping all over the place is still easier to swallow than Hydra targeting Dr Strange before he discovered magic because according to Kevin Fiege he was rebellious and smart. I'll always believe that's a retcon and back then they were intending to introduce Strange in full wizard mode.


Agreed, I think that was a rare gaff on Marvel's part, where Strange's name was mentioned as kind of an Easter egg/teaser before they really had a plan in place for a Doctor Strange movie.




This was addressed...
quote:

Kevin Feige explained that particular Easter egg:

"He is very well-known as a surgeon. He has got various awards and plaques you're going to see over there; he attends various galas, might be driving at one point in this movie. He has name recognition and a talent and certain Hydra computers identified him as somebody that could cause trouble for their agendas."


So I think the explanation that Dr. Strange (surgeon) could be a problem for Hydra's plans because of potential interference of a rich, influential man with a moral compass that INSIGHT determined that he may not have even known about is understandable.

HOWEVER, the fact that Jasper Sitwell had the name off the top of his head is a bit questionable.





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the goon
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posted on 3-16-2019 at 06:17 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I know that's the explanation Feige gave, but like First 9 said, it really just comes across as a retcon on Marvel's part. Not to mention it's a bit of a reach to think that Hydra was monitoring Strange for being a well-known surgeon and then he just so happened to become the most powerful sorcerer on Earth.

But hey, it's basically just a throwaway line in Winter Soldier, so it's not like it's something that destroys MCU continuity.

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posted on 3-16-2019 at 10:23 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
It even kind of works for the Dr Strange movie as Wong and the others are amazed at how quickly Strange learns magic, showing that even without magic, Strange is highly intelligent.

But yeah, it still smells like a retcon.

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posted on 3-17-2019 at 03:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I think of that line as a way of giving fans a heads up that they had plans for Doctor Strange in the MCU even if they hadn’t locked down exactly what the plans were yet.





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posted on 3-18-2019 at 12:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
INSIGHT had an initial target pool of over 700,000 people just on the Eastern seaboard, plus the number Fury threw out of 20 Million, it is not conceivable that there are that many supers or potential supers on the Eastern seaboard for the helicarriers to target.

Plus, in Doctor Strange, the nameless one mentioned Strange's strong moral character, even if he didn't see it in himself.

Like I said, I don't think it was too unreasonable for him to be targeted, but I do think it was unreasonable for Sitwell to have the name on the top of his head.





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