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Author: Subject: Game of Thrones: The Only Show That Matters in 2019
nOOb
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posted on 4-29-2019 at 04:43 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The opening to that battle with the army of flaming swords charging into battle got me really excited at first, but then I remembered that the show runners are assholes who like dashing your hopes, and immediately a brick wall of darkness was hit.

And everything after that was great, too. I’m glad they ended the episode on the note they did. Next week needs to get us all in good spirits again for an hour plus, before reminding us that that Cersei still has a fully staffed navy, dragon killing bastillas, a professional army larger than what’s in the North, and Sir Bronn of the Blackwater roaming around with a crossbow hunting Lannister brothers (I assume that Bronn and them Lannister boys ends with this show’s version of “Shut the fuck up and let me die in peace”).

[Edited on 4-29-2019 by nOOb]





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Paddlefoot
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posted on 4-29-2019 at 04:48 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Yup. If it's now simply a numbers game then Cersei WINS.





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posted on 4-29-2019 at 05:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by janerd75



An Ass Dan reference. Nice.

And I may find myself in the vast minority here, but I was a little underwhelmed by tonight's episode. I guess I had built up in my head that this was going to be the battle to end all battles, but I dunno...it just wasn't to me (maybe I'm suffering from post-Endgame syndrome). I was may more blown away by the Battle of the Bastards and Hardhome episodes to be honest. Plus it just feels a little anti-climatic to have the Night King and the White Walkers already killed off with three episodes to go, but that might just be me.

Also, did anyone else think that things were too dark visually? I thought it was kind of hard to tell what the hell was going on at times, which probably contributed to me not being fully onboard with tonight's episode.

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williamssl
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posted on 4-29-2019 at 05:19 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the goon

Also, did anyone else think that things were too dark visually? I thought it was kind of hard to tell what the hell was going on at times, which probably contributed to me not being fully onboard with tonight's episode.



Very much this.





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posted on 4-29-2019 at 06:09 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Arya committed wight genocide.





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posted on 4-29-2019 at 06:34 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl
quote:
Originally posted by the goon

Also, did anyone else think that things were too dark visually? I thought it was kind of hard to tell what the hell was going on at times, which probably contributed to me not being fully onboard with tonight's episode.



Very much this.


After browsing through the Game of Thrones Reddit thread for tonight's episode, it seems this is a pretty common complaint.

Speaking of complaints, some others that I've seen brought up about tonight's episode that I agree with:

-There was some insane plot armor going on (or as I saw someone else put it, it wasn't plot armor, but a plot fallout shelter). Jaime, Brienne, Tormund, Greyworm, etc are all on the front lines and none of them get killed? Plus there were multiple times it looked like they were for sure goners, only for it to cut to another scene and then come back to show them still fighting.

-The Night King and his army getting offed so quickly, after like seven years of buildup. I always assumed the ultimate endgame (no MCU pun intended) of Game of Thrones was all of the warring factions having to come together to defeat a common unstoppable enemy. Instead, we're left with Cersei and her group as the final boss, which just feels anti-climatic after a huge battle against a fucking supernatural undead army.





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nOOb
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posted on 4-29-2019 at 07:55 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Just a quick FYI, but per the next episode trailer, both dragons survived Winterfell. And so did Ghost, who I assume kept pace with Jorah, and once the Doth’raki (RIP to all of them, I guess?) hit a wall of wights, made a sharp right and just booked it for the forest to wait out the rest of the fight.





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posted on 4-29-2019 at 01:11 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm in total agreement with goon. Kind of disappointed. This battle should have been the best in the series and it just wasn't. Bastards and Hardhome were both much better. Half the fight in a snowstorm & darkness may have been artistically presented, giving one the sense of confusion as in actual battle, but to me it just seemed like a cost cutting measure by HBO.The less you can see, the less effects we need. I was hoping for a LOTR type battle scene. I, also, wasn't a fan of the horror movie break with Arya in the library.
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Paddlefoot
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posted on 4-29-2019 at 10:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This is faked but still fun, with the penultimate GOT scene superimposed into an image from England during the last World Cup.








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posted on 4-29-2019 at 11:14 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I loved that episode. Intensity in ten cities. I really enjoyed the horror scenes in the castle, but I do agree with comments about the quick cuts of the battle making it less impactful than either Hardhome or Battle of the Bastards. The quick cuts of the dragon fights in particular. Even with these issues, the episode had me at the edge of my seat, and I yelled "OH SHIT!" when Arya came out of nowhere to lunge at the Night King, and another "OH SHIT YES!" when Arya killed him. That was pretty damn satisfying.
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posted on 4-30-2019 at 08:20 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Ain’t that some video game Bullshit? You kill all of the enemies and finally get to the Final Boss but since you didn’t kill him in time, he resurrected everyone and you have to start all over.




quote:
Originally posted by the goon
-The Night King and his army getting offed so quickly, after like seven years of buildup. I always assumed the ultimate endgame (no MCU pun intended) of Game of Thrones was all of the warring factions having to come together to defeat a common unstoppable enemy. Instead, we're left with Cersei and her group as the final boss, which just feels anti-climatic after a huge battle against a fucking supernatural undead army.


Yeah, but it’s Game of Thrones, the Night King and his bros might be that world’s biggest all time enemy but in this section of time, it’s more about these people (Starks, Lannisters, Danny...) I get the gripe but the Night King wasn’t attacking so he can sit anywhere. He just wanted everyone dead.


I will say that the darkness was off putting but necessary and strategically correct and the Arya scene seemed a little out of place. And sweet how most of our heroes made it after killing a bunch of the undeads with a lot of help and then having to kill them all over again but also with their dead buddies joining the wights against them. Seems legit.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 4-30-2019 at 08:47 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The darkness can be explained by the reality that, like Jon said, he brings the night and the storm with him. They should have adjusted the contrast to let a bit more light in, I'll admit that, but the blurriness of the blizzard was entirely appropriate. Pretty gripping scene above the clouds with the dragons too, with the storm just circling around Winterfell like a hurricane from the coldest of hells. Ditto as well with the scenes of the Night King on the dragon in the storm, where all you could see of his face was an outline and his glowing eyes in the blowing snow. And again with his smirk at Dany when he walked completely unscathed from the dragonfire. All of this showed they were fighting some kind of uber-demon or a demi-god, which makes the Pyrrhic nature of their victory with the vast majority of the participants dying all the more appropriate. The essentially dodged Armageddon, with the vast bulk of their strength annihilated, only because of the insane dexterity skills of a master assassin who managed to sneak through in the same manner Frodo snuck into Mordor.

Lyanna Mormont went out like a total boss, and did it in a way that probably would have killed a living giant too if one had picked her up like that. RIP to the now-extinct House Mormont, a small house but probably the bravest one of all. Ditto too to Theon's Ironborn, who went out with a type of class that one normally wouldn't expect from a bunch of reavers and rapers.

I was involved in another convo elsewhere where we were discussing how every single advantage the good guys had in a fight against the living was effectively cross-spectrum nullified by the Night King and the dead, kind of similar to how the standard military in The Walking Dead or World War Z was completely unsuited to dealing with a packed mass of undead. If anyone wants to engage I can fire a few of these points around here as it applies to GOT.

[Edited on 4/30/2019 by Paddlefoot]





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OOMike
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posted on 4-30-2019 at 01:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
We watched this last night, after watching Endgame in the afternoon... while I can understand the complaints about the battle being too dark, it makes sense story wise, as someone said, the fight was at night, plus the Nightking brought in a blizzard to negate some of the fire that the defenders of Winterfell were using.

As for not being able to follow what was happening, that is war, the odd thing was the quiet time Arya had in the library. I guess they used that to foreshadow her invisibility?
I had heard that the Army of the Dead was going to be resolved by episode three going into the season, so I am not surprised, the show is called Game of Thrones, not Game of Walking Dead. Everything revolves around the throne, and who gets to sit in it.

And tonight, when I drink, I shall pour a little out for House Mormont and raise a toast to a house that is no more, but had the father give up the house to don the Black, a son, disgraced and exiled, and a niece/child the lone remaining noble, lead her army bravely and defeat a giant.





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posted on 4-30-2019 at 04:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Just watched it and the weeks prior with my buddy (his schedule is weird, so I have to wait on him. We've been watching it together since the beginning.) and thought it was really good. Not much else to add that hasn't been spoken on already I think, but a few things.

-I'd had this thought since the whole king of the north thing, that Jon was going to end up betrothed to Lyanna Mormont (or as we started calling her a while back Princess Baby Bear.) Obviously with the Danny thing that wasn't going to happen (though with the family thing it could've still come to pass) but doubly so now that she's...you know...dead.

-Apparently Chris Stapleton, country musician, was one of the reanimated wildling corpses when Snow was running at the King when he was raising them up.

-It's been touched on a bit, but my buddy posited that when they raised people up, we might see a, sort of, return of Ned, with a hand or something busting out of the crypt.

-Also, I very much agree that it was, at times, hard to tell what was going on with the dark lighting and such.

-Did the whole Bran casting himself into the Raven's pay off somewhere in the episode I didn't catch? I thought it was going to have something to do with the Night King's undoing, but didn't seem to go anywhere?





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posted on 4-30-2019 at 06:28 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Yeah, Bran did disappear into the green memory for quite a while, and not just to use those ravens to observe the Night King. Where did he go and what did he see while he was away, so to speak?





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posted on 4-30-2019 at 07:00 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Bran's fucking useless. That is all.
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posted on 4-30-2019 at 08:58 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Dis iz hardkore.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html

Great point on the incredible danger of flying a dragon at the White Walkers. Those ice-javelins make them too much of a risk to directly attack from the air, just like the North Vietnamese firing SAM-2 AA missiles (which are a long as a fucking telephone pole) at the B-52's of the US Air Force. The dragons are awesome and a huge advantage against the living. That vulnerability to fire from the ground though turns them into the equivalent of dreadnought battleships in World War One - Dany simply can't afford to lose another one of them so they're reduced to the "easier" tasks of staffing runs on the massed ranks of the dead. Or used as a distraction to keep the Night King occupied elsewhere and away from the main battle on the ground, kind of like how simply parking the Tirpitz in a Norwegian fjord kept a large portion of the British Home Fleet on station in the area to prevent it from attacking convoys instead of being able to deploy those ships to better use in the Mediterranean or to the Pacific.





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posted on 5-1-2019 at 05:01 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote






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posted on 5-3-2019 at 01:21 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl




Not enough Borderlands talk in here, I guess.


Back to the story: Why did Melisandre kill herself at the end of the episode? Was it because with Beric dead, she knew the Lord of Light had failed or was it because she realized he powers were waning after it took a long time lighting the trench? Or did she just figure they’d all be dead and since most of the main people lived, she’d be executed anyway so why not go out her way (which didn’t she say that fire was the best way to die?)? Or was it just because Davos lived, so she knew she was screwed?

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posted on 5-3-2019 at 01:41 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Never enough Borderlands talk anywhere

And that was at Paddlefoot's militarybreakdown post, not the entire thread.


re: Melisandre
I just assumed it was because she had fulfilled her purpose of helping the Lord of Light defeat the darkness/Night King. "Hey I've done my part. I'm all old and shit. Peace out"



Different topic - someone pointed this out to me today and it was something that I at least missed in all the darkness of the episode and/or me just being slow (note I did put an "and" option there):

Jon yelling "Go. Go. Go." at (no not at, towards) the dead dragon was a distraction so Arya could run by and do her killing thing.

Kinda cool in retrospect.





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posted on 5-3-2019 at 08:22 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This is a long video, but does a good job of summing up everything wrong with The Battle of Winterfell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=897&v=GI7zy1PTMp0





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posted on 5-3-2019 at 06:43 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Any video summing up what was wrong with the Battle of Winterfell should be 5 seconds long and just be a still picture of Bran. Everything else was great.
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posted on 5-3-2019 at 07:31 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Yeah, that video picked up halfway through and started with the Night King survived his fall to the ground somehow. Not somehow. He survived because he's the fucking incarnation of the death. He and his immediate lieutenants could only be killed by two different types of material, both of which probably had some sort of magic attached. And their foot soldiers only had the added weakness of fire.

My only real gripe after rewatching the episode is justifying Daenerys being a good ruler. Besides her openness to burning prisoners alive to prove a point, she's also too impulsive and bad at spur of the moment decisions to be a good ruler. She jumped the gun at the beginning of the episode instead of sticking to the plan of waiting for the Night King, and then she landed her dragon in the middle of the newly risen dead, which almost got her dragon killed and, because she got knocked off, probably got Jorah killed.

Also, I like this ending for Berric better than his book ending. Constantly knocking the dead out of the way and blocking their path with his body so that Arya and the Hound could get away from the dead for their escape was a damned heroic death, and probably would have been the best one had Lyanna Mormont not killed an undead giant.

Also also, if Bran wants to make up for his uselessness during the battle, he should warg into whatever animals are close to Cersei and just have them attack her constantly until she dies. Like nonstop wargening. Oh, you managed to survive my flock of crows? Well, how about Tommen's cat that's probably still around somewhere. Oh you got away on boat? Meet my swarm of flounder. Like just throw every animal at her, one of them would get the job done, and probably be hella humiliating too.

[Edited on 5-3-2019 by nOOb]





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posted on 5-3-2019 at 08:23 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
If Dany doesn't land her dragon when she does, Jon's a dead man.

This theory going slightly back into last season that Dany wouldn't be a great leader really doesn't sit right with me. Is she perfect? No. Has she made some decisions that could be questioned? Sure. But what has always made Dany a potentially great leader is that she has always and continues to surround herself with good people who help her be better. She may not always take their advice but she listens and is inherently good. The theory that she's a mad queen in training has never sat right, especially when we already have the mad queen in power. Yes, she's burned enemies...she's a Targarayen. That's what they do. Even the good ones. The Starks have beheaded enemies. That's what they do.

Do I think she's the best potential leader left? No. That's Sansa. But I'm totally okay with a Dragon Queen in King's Landing and I haven't seen anything that really shows her as having bad motivations for that.

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posted on 5-3-2019 at 10:38 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Dany might have an entitlement complex but name any of the royals on the show that don't. And don't say Jon doesn't because he didn't even know he was one of them until the very last second. As for the "bad ruler" thing, if it involved killing the Tarly's, some things need to be kept in mind. One, Dany offered them the chance to submit and they refused. Two, they were previously sworn to her through Olenna Tyrell and joined the Lannister side anyway. Three, if she was insane or evil like the other Targaryens she wouldn't have bothered taking any prisoners at all and killed ALL of the Lannister/Tarly forces outright instead of allowing them to surrender. Dany also only took direct action herself after Tyrion's overall strategic plan had obviously failed - she had to do something after the loss of both Dorne and the Tyrells happened so quickly or she risked looking like a schmuck that no one else would ally themselves to, which would have confirmed that she was a foreign invader that only the Dothraki and Unsullied were loyal to.

All in all she's done a pretty fine job given the circumstances and forces arrayed against her. I can get Sansa's gripe against submitting to a Targaryen but it also comes across as more than ungrateful considering that Dany is the only one who went out of her way to address the much greater threat of the Night King. From Cersei on down none of the other Southerners (except for the now-destroyed forces from The Vale), whatever their reasons are, did anything at all to help stop an apocalypse. And Dany's paid for it too by losing the huge bulk of her forces to the army of the dead. What's she got left to show for it now? A competitor to the throne in Jon, a bare handful of Unsullied survivors, two dragons (and Rhaegal could be badly injured and out of action altogether) that have been shown to have weaknesses to anti-air mechanisms, and a much-diminished group of Northerners who are still incapable of even saying she's not the same lunatic her father was.

At this stage she should almost tell everyone to fuck off and go back to Meereen to live a life of hedonistic luxury and let the ingrates of Westeros live under people like Cersei and Euron.

quote:
Originally posted by nOOb
...she's also too impulsive and bad at spur of the moment decisions to be a good ruler. She jumped the gun at the beginning of the episode instead of sticking to the plan....


Battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy. Even a genuine military genius like Tywin Lannister would have got his ass kicked by the Night King. Turns out it applies as much when a horde of normally uber-dangerous barbarian horsemen get instantaneously wiped out by fast-moving undead ice wights as much as it did when all those pesky hyper-religious Muslim lunatics turned out to be kind of immune to good ol' "shock and awe". Same with them Krazy Krauts and Japanese and commie Vietnamese who kept on going no matter how much tonnage got dropped on them.




[Edited on 5/3/2019 by Paddlefoot]





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