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Eli
The Immortal One






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posted on 1-13-2018 at 07:38 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
OO Too

Former OO columnist / board regular / Mod Jeb Lund shows up on the "shitty media men" list ...

https://shittymediamenlist.wordpress.com/





The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent.

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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 1-13-2018 at 06:19 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
What a piece.

What types of reviews and Columns did he do?

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williamssl
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posted on 1-13-2018 at 08:57 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
We were his warm-up act.





Don't Mess With Texas

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denverpunk
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posted on 1-13-2018 at 11:19 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I never found him to be the nicest guy on here, especially if he disagreed with you.
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Stone Cold Steve Autism
I did eat all the macaroni. I don't know how he knows.






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posted on 1-14-2018 at 01:01 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I know it's common practice with these things for men to hide behind the women in their life for protection, but at the risk of being a cliché, I'll say this.

I was raised by a single, working mom and was a latchkey kid. I spent hours every day alone and unsupervised. Because of that, I had a deeply frightening conversation about bodily autonomy and abuse very early in life. When mom taught me about what was unacceptable for someone to do to me, she was very honest about what was unacceptable for anyone to do to anyone else, including her.

So, starting around the age of six, in addition to the monsters from movie trailers that my imagination conjured around every corner, I was at home, alone, after nightfall, terrified of what some nice-seeming neighbor might do to me, or what someone lurking in the parking lot where my mom worked would do to her. I still have embarrassing memories of running away from well-meaning strangers who my overactive imagination turned into predators.

All of which is to say that I take your right to your own body very seriously, enough so that I have never uttered anything like the cited comment sincerely in my life. (Nobody has a right to your body, irrespective of your gender or theirs, without your consent.) It's certainly something I might have said in a deadpan to ridicule that kind of loathsome thinking, and I can easily imagine someone who didn't know me overhearing such a thing at a media party and (quite reasonably!) thinking that I meant it, but I have not and will not ever endorse that kind of thinking.

I also freely concede that I have DMmed a lot of women. I've DMmed hundreds of men, too, because I follow hundreds of them. If I like you enough to follow you, I'll probably talk to you at one point because I want to know who you are. And I am sure that in a few cases my DM slide has been put down to creeping. While I might think that you shouldn't flirt with people who don't want to be flirted with, I also realize I don't get to control when someone thinks that friendliness is flirtiness or a joke has an intent behind it. If I were a woman on the internet and getting unsolicited DMs, harassment and "offers" pretty much constantly, I'd probably take a dimmer view of some conversations. Context matters. That I was not more mindful of that is obviously my mistake.

And I don't discount that I have talked shit about my women peers. I talk shit about a lot of my peers; everyone does. I talk substantially more shit about my male peers because there are still a lot more of them, because my field is no better than most about equal representation. I can only assume that the person who encountered my negativity got an unrepresentative sample. If they had stuck around long enough, they probably would have heard me talking as much trash about garbage male writers drawing great salaries, or they might have heard me explaining (again) that I quit my job at one of the most respected papers in the world because my excellent editor was driven out of her position and replaced by a man who was unqualified to be her receptionist.

I apologize if this seems polished and insincere. This list was created one evening and shut down the next day, not least because it was open to editing by anybody without internal mechanisms for verification and control. I woke up the next morning to three (thankfully very sympathetic) texts from women friends who'd been invited to edit the list alerting me to it. So I've had a lot of time over the last month or so to think about it. Like me, those friends recognized a lot of names, and like me, their responses ran the gamut from, "That's something I'd already heard," to, "That guy definitely does not belong on here." The latter is not an uncommon response, from people of both sexes, and I put down the fact that I have not lost friends because of it to that. I believe I belong in that latter category, but do whatever makes you happy.

[Edited on 1-14-2018 by Stone Cold Steve Autism]





Chevy Chase has denied allegations of membership in the Proud Boys.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-14-2018 at 01:10 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
#IBelieveJebTennysonLund





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BBMN
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posted on 1-14-2018 at 03:39 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
What a piece.

What types of reviews and Columns did he do?

Jeb while he was here wrote some of the absolute best rants on politics that have ever been typed out and shared. I haven't kept up too much on all of his stuff post-OO, but from what I have seen he's just getting better. He also closely followed football and had some good pieces on the game and the NFL. And when he wasn't writing out a two thousand word rant on how fucking corrupt Cheney was, he was busy sniping people with crude but clever one-liners.

"Verbal intimidation of female colleagues"

I imagine anyone, regardless of gender, would feel intimidated by his way with words. Either you're able to defend yourself, or you're not. He went off on me a few times and every time was almost always because I was presenting a bad argument (usually for a point he agreed with). In large I grew fond of his ways because he was more or less abrasively getting me to become a better poster, writer, and debater. Now would the dynamic be different in a media outlet while face-to-face? I really can't say. I do see him as the type of person that truly doesn't care what genitals you have if you're trying to have a discussion. And I think this irks people a lot. As guys we're conditioned to be outgoing and argumentative. I can see some white collar women that aren't used to such a climate (like the Current Events section here a decade or so ago) not feeling comfy with it, but that's on them not him.

"creepy DMs"

We would need to see them to know if they're creepy. A guy can be labeled creepy for looking at a person anymore, so 'creepy' is losing it's value and meaning by the minute.


"encourages other men to have sex with blacked out women because “that’s what they’re there for” "

I have a hard time thinking that any person of even below average intelligence would stand around (presumably at a party?) and be all, "Look at Amy... y'all fuckers should def go rape the shit out of her because she's passed out." I have a hard time seeing this. I do however have a much easier time seeing Jeb (again a man I have never even met in real life) making an off color joke at anyone's expense... a joke that no matter how inappropriate it seems, is not meant as a literal bit of encouragement for anyone to do anything.

This blog here looks like it's just lumping allegations of "one time he may or may not have sent a text to a woman" with "probably raped a whole bunch of people in college" and that's kinda fucked.

[Edited on 1-14-2018 by BBMN]

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Columbo
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posted on 1-14-2018 at 04:28 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm going to take Jeb's word on this one. While he's clearly a little crazy and I still have goatse flashbacks from time to time in our admittedly limited interactions Jeb has always been a decent person. So yeah while I'm sure he's said some shit that out of context would seem despicable I'm not gonna burn him on a giant t for that.





"The North Cafeteria, named after Admiral William North, is located in the western portion of East Hall, gateway to the western half of North Hall, which is named, not after William North, but for its position above the South Wall. It is the most contested and confusing battlefield on Greendale’s campus, next to the English Memorial Spanish Center, named after English Memorial, a Portuguese sailor that discovered Greendale while looking for a fountain that cured syphilis."

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chretienbabacool
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posted on 1-14-2018 at 06:46 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BBMN

"creepy DMs"

We would need to see them to know if they're creepy. A guy can be labeled creepy for looking at a person anymore, so 'creepy' is losing it's value and meaning by the minute.[Edited on 1-14-2018 by BBMN]


Creepiness is not up to the person making the statement but up to the person receiving it so if someone tells you you are being creepy believe them and don't argue about it. That doesn't mean you are a bad person or trying to come across as that but it does mean you should do some introspection. It's beyond tiresome to see men think they can go through life saying whatever they want and women should just deal because the poor man's feelings might be hurt.

As far as Jeb goes I hope it's not true. I always liked his writings here and on Twitter and we had good interactions and I know we have a lot in common politically. After Louis CK though I'm done taking anything for granted. That one hurt.

[Edited on 1-14-2018 by chretienbabacool]





Go Cubs!

And just imagine if, instead of the Palins, the Obama family had a pregnant, underage daughter on display at their convention, flanked by her black boyfriend who "intends" to marry her. Who among conservatives would have resisted the temptation to speak of "the dysfunction in the black community"?

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the goon
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posted on 1-14-2018 at 11:15 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm just surprised it didn't say "emailed all of his coworkers the goatse pic," since that was kind of his thing.





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Count Zero
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 01:42 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Yeah, as much as I thought Jeb was/is pretty insightful, he sometimes fell into the SHOCK AND DISGUST!!!!!!!!!!!! INSULT!!!!!! LOUD NOISES!!!! trap that is Online "Edginess". A lot of that behavior doesn't fly in the real world, because not everybody is a 20something Sarcastic Hipster Who Doesn't Really Mean Those Things. I used to be one of those people. That's the problem with "being funny": it's not always funny to everybody.

Like right now, SCSA's avatar contains "Nazi Imagery" that would get moderated on more public-access websites, but I'm sure that it's part of a Larry David (I think that's who that is in the picture?) Gag from Curb Your Enthusiasm (or some other "comedic" tv show/movie). With context, okay, I get it. Without context, it looks like a post from somebody who might think the Whites are Right.

On the internet, we don't always have the chance to explain what we mean when we present ourselves. If you present yourself "offensively" for laughs, some people will take you at face value (because that's the simplest reaction) and eventually be offended. And I've never felt like "Oh c'mon, I'm just joking" is a good excuse for bad behaviour, or it's been hidden behind for long enough in my opinion. Think about the joke before you tell/make it, when possible. Sure, you can tell racist/sexist/disgustingly-offensive jokes. Just make sure your audience is into that sort of thing before you start doing it. Words can leave more lasting scars than physical violence. The saying should be "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will cause me to hate myself and everybody around me and go crazy and kill a bunch of people in a sad blaze of inexplicable tragedy."

[Edited on 1-15-2018 by Count Zero]

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 02:16 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Jeb's merely been caught in the web of PC/SJW insanity where the lunatics of the far left have been able to make telling jokes or making rude-yet-harmless comments are now equivalent to physical assault and rape. It's insane when someone who makes a few obvious harmless jokes or writes something transgressive or even simply tells someone to fuck off is now seen as equivalent to a rapist like Harvey Weinstein but that's the trap we're all in now. The internet isn't as free as it once was ten years ago, and it's as much due to the puritanical rage of the hard left as it is due to scumbags on the right trying to monetize it for their own personal benefit.

I don't know where all if this is going to end but, like almost everything else over the last few years, I'm sure that it's going to end badly. The overall arc of the entire culture and society is pointing sharply downwards and I don't see it reversing course anytime soon.

Also, the SCSA av is Chevy Chase from Community having a Glenn Beck-type of "Nazis everywhere!" meltdown.





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bopol
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 04:44 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
What's a DM?

No, seriously, I don't know.





I only signed up so I can read the forum.

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Stone Cold Steve Autism
I did eat all the macaroni. I don't know how he knows.






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posted on 1-15-2018 at 05:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Direct Message. It's Twitter's private message function. It used to be limited to 140 characters too, which led to some confusing hellos, unless someone sent you a bunch in a row.

Originally posted by chretienbabacool
Creepiness is not up to the person making the statement but up to the person receiving it so if someone tells you you are being creepy believe them and don't argue about it.

Yep, that's it. A frustrating thing about hearing this via a crowdsourced doc is that I have never had hiring/firing power, and in most cases I've never met my colleagues. (I've only ever even visited two places I've worked.) I work from home, 1000+ miles away, where the most I can do is say something shitty that you can show our boss. So, if the complaint/listing was made in good faith, it sucks that someone didn't feel comfortable seeing if I would listen, apologize and change accordingly.

Originally posted by Count Zero
Yeah, as much as I thought Jeb was/is pretty insightful, he sometimes fell into the SHOCK AND DISGUST!!!!!!!!!!!! INSULT!!!!!! LOUD NOISES!!!! trap that is Online "Edginess". A lot of that behavior doesn't fly in the real world,

Yeah. Internet humor is internet humor; I don't drag it into real life. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was sitting around saying "God is gay, lol" to shock people. I've just been trying to spitball an explanation for why I would say something I've never believed in the form of a joke that sucks ass. My best guess is some kind of explicative mid-monologue voice trying to illustrate a bad rationalization. That or maybe a Slack/Campfire screenshot that someone else saw out of context. Again, assuming the complaint was sincere.

Originally posted by Paddlefoot
Jeb's merely been caught in the web of PC/SJW insanity where the lunatics of the far left have been able to make telling jokes or making rude-yet-harmless comments are now equivalent to physical assault and rape.

I appreciate having your support. I do. (You're a fun poster!) But I side with those PC/SJW people. I like to think I am one. I grew up in an era with a lot more acceptable slurs, and I'm glad I don't live there anymore. I also remember people saying that policing language back then was a mania that would tear us apart. I remember thinking they were wrong, then watching time prove that. Every few years, I learn something else I probably should have learned sooner, stop saying something insensitive, learn a new way of approaching a topic and move forward. It's not hard.

It's easier than the alternative. "Triggering" stuff is real. Sometimes it's obvious, like how sports injuries make me sick because they remind me of my own. Sometimes it's seeing your girlfriend shaking because a graphic rape in a movie reminds her of her own. Sometimes it's a joke. Count Zero had a good point above about my old avatar. Seven years ago, it's just a TV show gag. After two years of meeting Nazis the hard way, if I didn't recognize the reference, I'd block anyone with that avatar talking to me. It reminds me of people who threaten me. So if a colleague got creeped on for hours, online, and I showed up to chat and triggered that same response, I can't get mad at that. In the same circumstances, I'd probably feel the same.

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Big G
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 05:20 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I always liked Jeb. He was one of those people I only met online but would have enjoyed having a beer with at some time. I admire the way he views and articulates the world.

I'm sure we've all said and done things that out of context are dumb or bad. Some of us may have even done or said genuinely bad things. I know I have. And for sure we need to get better, as a species and a gender. War isn't going to achieve that, but it still needs to happen.

I respect Jeb's intelligence and humanity; and I'm sure regardless of whether the grievances are genuine or blown out of proportion, Jeb will learn and get better coming out the other side.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 06:00 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I agree about the Nazy symbology now being essentially verboten, even if it's obviously done as a joke. I was using Baby Hitler and Gary Beach as Hitler from The Producers as my av here on OO and at other places. The 2016 election put an end to all of that though. Actual real Nazi cunts of the 4Chan, Reddit, and Daily Stormer variety managing to put the most repellent creature to ever fall out of New York City's mobster-ridden real-estate development bung-hole into the White House as POTUS basically took all the fun out of Hitler jokes for the entire next generation. It's funny when it's along the same lines as Mel Brooks fucking around. When it turns into a repeat of the 1930's with tiki-torch carrying assholes who openly claim to be the spiritual grandsons of the rotten old monster though? Ehh, time to not play with those toys anymore, or ever again.

As for what I still think is the left-wing attack on humour I'm of two minds on most of it. I'm not going to use the n-word to a person's face, ever, because I think it's so ugly and hurtful a thing to say out loud. That doesn't mean I haven't said it though in the past when shit-faced and silly with my idiot friends while we were listening to Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy comedy acts. I can't fix any of that from way back when. All I can promise to do is not ever do it again in the future. That being said I still believe that there's a strain of dangerous puritanism that's out of control. I don't think it can be said otherwise when things happen like liberal left-wing professors being driven out of their jobs at universities because the kids have shown up for class all primed and pre-offended before the instructor even says a word, and then proceed to shut down the class (if not the entire school) when the adult in the room says something that makes them explode, even when it's clearly necessary as part of the subject being taught. This kind of thing is just unacceptable. Shutting down the speech of instructors and eliminating all potential upset is not part of a competed education. That's more like people who have deliberately limited and crippled their minds, and who are in for one hell of a shock after graduation because the ugly parts of the real world are not going to stop being what they are just because an immature crusade might have succeeded in wiping out any mention of unpleasant realities in classroom discussions.

It's complex and disturbing and like I already said I don't like where any of this is heading. It used to be said that you'd never see the sitcoms of the 1970's ever again on mainstream TV because even a dyed-in-the-wool anti-war and anti-racism progressive liberal like Norman Lear wouldn't get away with a character like Archie Bunker these days. Now it's so bad I doubt anyone would even get away with the comedy of the 1990's unless it's something like HBO or Starz providing the platform for it. Think about it: someone as tame as Jerry Seinfeld won't do shows on campuses anymore because he's tired of being called a fascist by some puritan in the crowd or being blocked from performing at all by some hysterical outraged protest. There's something seriously wrong when anything like that could ever happen.





"Let's go give these Canuckleheads a good ol red-white-and-blue fist-fucking!" - Janerd75

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BBMN
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 04:48 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
feelings

quote:
Originally posted by chretienbabacool
It's beyond tiresome to see men think they can go through life saying whatever they want and women should just deal...

I never said that or implied that. I was saying that there are things that are absolutely creepy that are not open to interpretation. And that interpretations can be wrong at times. I never said anyone can saying anything with no repercussions.
quote:
because the poor man's feelings might be hurt.

I told myself to not get worked up here, but....




I'm pretty sure "feelings" is at the bottom of the list of things I would immediately worry about when waking up and finding myself being in a position like Jeb is now in. I'd be more preoccupied with worrying about things like employment, future employment, reputation, professional relationships, personal relationships, and marriage. That's so quaint that you distilled the crux of what is being placed on the line, down to feelings.... Feelings. Feelings.


He was literally just plastered on a list next to probable rapists, without so much as a means to defend himself. That's fucked.

"You can edit anonymously by logging out of your gmail. Please never name an accuser, and please never share this document with a man."

^^^
Probably as bad as goatse.

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CCharger
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posted on 1-15-2018 at 05:18 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Another issue that seems lost here is "due process". We are living in an age where vague, anonymous accusations can be thrown out on the internet and instant condemnation rains down.

I'm am all for bringing and end to this type of at best boorish and at worst criminal behavior of men toward women to an end. I do NOT think angry mob justice is the way to do it.

I encourage women to come forward. I further encourage the wheels of justice to begin grinding. We live in a civilized society governed by laws. Everyone, even assholes, are protected.

I am fearful of a country where an accusation is made and instantly believed and someone's life is ruined without any due process or fact-finding done.





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BBMN
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posted on 1-16-2018 at 12:08 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Speaking of Due Process...

Margaret Atwood is getting tired of this shit too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/article37591823/

It seems that I am a "Bad Feminist." I can add that to the other things I've been accused of since 1972, such as climbing to fame up a pyramid of decapitated men's heads (a leftie journal), of being a dominatrix bent on the subjugation of men (a rightie one, complete with an illustration of me in leather boots and a whip) and of being an awful person who can annihilate – with her magic White Witch powers – anyone critical of her at Toronto dinner tables. I'm so scary! And now, it seems, I am conducting a War on Women, like the misogynistic, rape-enabling Bad Feminist that I am.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-16-2018 at 01:44 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
It's like watching the Stalinists wipe out the Old Bolsheviks during the purges & show trials in pre-WW2 Russia all over again. No mass murders of course by the SJW's, just figurative annihilations of the "errant" individuals who offended the new orthodoxy.





"Let's go give these Canuckleheads a good ol red-white-and-blue fist-fucking!" - Janerd75

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-16-2018 at 11:39 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Not sure if Jeb's still checking out this thread but I'd suggest that he consult a lawyer if he's seen any damage to his career happen as a result of this blacklisting. Seems the right thing to do would be to make Moira Donegan pay through the nose via a slander/libel charge and not let her slide with some kind of "hey, I'm just providing a platform for anonymous victims" dodge. She as much admitted in the sub-text of her article justifying the creation of the list that she thinks the regular law doesn't apply to her so someone on it should take her up on the challenge and let a court decide if her kind of evidence-exempt Stalinist feminism (where accusations apparently don't require any proof) should survive a constitutional rights lawsuit.





"Let's go give these Canuckleheads a good ol red-white-and-blue fist-fucking!" - Janerd75

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BBMN
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posted on 1-17-2018 at 12:34 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Wait. Did he lose his job because of this?
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Paddlefoot
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posted on 1-17-2018 at 12:38 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm just assuming that if someone sees his name on the list he could get blacklisted from further writing assignments as a result.





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Count Zero
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posted on 1-17-2018 at 07:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
I'm just assuming that if someone sees his name on the list he could get blacklisted from further writing assignments as a result.
You're being an armchair legal advisor. That's one step away from backseat driving. I'm sure you're acting in "good faith", but if Jeb's a professional writer-type (which he obviously is), I suspect he has legal council. Or at least knows a couple of ACTUAL LAWYER types, instead of somebody philosophizing about quasi-"Stalinist" (I'm not educated in the proper disciplines to argue about that) regimework enacted by a class of people who have been abused by people who have used the same weapons against them.

To reiterate: I'm sure you're just lookin' out for Jeb, but it does seem to be a very politically-charged and specific brand of "support" you're throwing his way. Let the lawyers handle the law, and you can keep ranting about ... whatever the hell. Just ... you are not a lawyer, right? Y'know how that works on the internet by now, I hope?

Also, when you assume, you make an ass out of you. Keep the rest of us out of it, if you'd be so kind.

[Edited on 1-17-2018 by Count Zero]

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posted on 1-18-2018 at 05:19 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm actually kind of curious to see some of the potential legal cases for some of these "lists" or guys who have lost jobs because they stand accused of something.

Don't get me wrong; bad behaviour deserves to be punished; but we do live in a society of laws where the presumption is that anyone is innocent until proven guilty and how we as a society respond to these wave of accusations is an interesting aspect of this whole ME TOO movement... so for arguments sake let's assume a guy like Danny Masterson IS innocent... he has essentially lost his job which probably paid him millions, and as such the accusations against him were reinforced... after all, NETFLIX must know something we don't or else they would have stood by their star (there are probably other trains of thought, but I think this one is probably gone through a lot of people's heads).

Now if I were a betting man I'd guess Masterson got some kind of golden parachute to go away fairly quietly (he did make a statement expressing his disappointment with Netflix and that he looks forward to clearing his name) but somewhat buried in the headlines was that a Netflix exec was also fired... this was the fellow who was approached by one of the accusers at his kids soccer game and questioned as to why Netflix hadn't fired Masterson yet, to which he responded "we don't believe them" in referencing the accusations... this lead to Netflix putting out a statement condemning the comments, and the exec was later fired... You could argue the exec (Yeatman) was talking out of turn, but I'm sure he has lawyers that would also argue that he was fired for standing by someone who remains legally innocent.

So I'm not saying all the accusers in these situations are making false statements, or we shouldn't give credence to accusers, or that all of these men are innocent... I'm sure a great many of them based on the number of accusations are guilty... I'm curious about how we as a society deal with these accusations... are we satisfied to see accused be presumed guilty on social media and lose their jobs under the often times vague "inappropriate behaviour" label, or should we be insisting on due process? I get that in a lot of these cases due process would probably fail these women due to the difficulty of proving many of these crimes and the power that some of these men wield... but odds are that at least some (let's say 1) of these "inappropriate behaviours" are inflated, false, part of an agenda, or of instances where the punishment does not fit the crime (I though Matt Damon's talk about how we need to establish a spectrum of these behaviours while still saying they are all bad had merit before he was shouted down by social media).... Are we okay with seeing someone who maybe made a drunken play for girl (let's say he did that put your arm up on a wall above the lady thing that can make some ladies feel pinned in or with no place to go 20 years ago) but who has since changed his ways held up alongside a known rapist all under the banner of "inappropriate behaviour" and to see him lose his job for this?

I don't have the answers on what percentage is inflated, who the delicate snowflakes jumping on board are, and what amount is genuine heinous or at least repeated bad behaviour... if it's only one innocent guy or even a case of someone being lumped in to the current climate because of the most benign of behaviours do the ends justify the means? Like I said, I'm not judging- just playing devils advocate (the fact that I feel like I need to say this repeatedly is just odd, and maybe a touch symbolic of where we are at right now that I, a man, is having the audacity to question or speak out about anything)... I just think that how we respond as a society is an interesting and important question we need to answer because our need for justice of any kind seems to be presently at odds with some of our other values.

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