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Author: Subject: A Morning Political Rant to the Left
Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 03:51 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
A Morning Political Rant to the Left

A Rant to the Left, brought on by morning social media:

So I have to ask, what are any of you going to actually do about all of this crap with Trump? The Americans, at least. We know the Canadians and others will just make fun of Trump and the Republicans and not have to do anything about it. It's not their country, after all.

But seriously, when is enough going to be enough? When do you stop bitching on Facebook groups and Twitter and forums about how terrible Trump is and pick up a sign and a gun and go to the streets and stay on the streets about it? Because we're going to come to a time, probably sooner than later, where you're gonna have to make a call on it all.

If you think Trump and the Republicans are going to stop doing what they are doing, you're a fucking moron. It's gotten them complete control of the government, a partial destruction of the press, and the ability to program a third of America into believing whatever they want with a 15 second piece on Fox News. They've learned they can lie and that they will win with lies. Why would they stop? Hell, they are trying to get a child molester elected just so they can take away your kid's college education and give the money to billionaires. And probably to molest your kids as well, before they go to church to pray. Do you think they fucking give one shit about "American Values?"

Say Mueller comes up with all the evidence, and it still doesn't matter? Trump keeps it tied up in the courts, and his Republican-controlled Congress won't impeach him. Say they manage, through lies, voter restrictions, and gerrymandering, to keep control of it all in 2018. And then in 2020. And again push through more cuts to everything that protects the poor and middle class in favor of a few thousand rich white guys? Say they start locking down your ability to use the internet, they start rounding up brown people and Muslim Americans and locking them up in ever-increasing numbers? Say they start arming the police with military gear, now seeded with pro-Trump captains, and the courts, now full of pro-Trump judges....By the way, all of this is already happening.

This is what happened in Turkey a decade ago, and now it's essentially a theocratic dictatorship with democratic trappings. It's what will happen to the USA. What is already happening... So when do you pick up the guns and the rest and start actually doing something about it? When do you start stockpiling ammunition?

If you don't think the Republicans know they can do what they do because nothing will come of it from the left, then you're stupid. They rely on the fact that you're going to just sit and whine from your suburb apartment or dorm room while getting high and playing League of Legends or Call of Duty while they burn down your brown-skinned neighbors and take your 401k.

You rely on things that are already being changed to work against you. The judges won't be there for you, the legislators already aren't there for you. In fact, they are laughing at you when you sign a petition, or when you camp out on Wall Street for a few weeks then go back to college to talk about gender issues. They enjoy the fact that you're angry and won't do anything about it that matters.

How many of you lefties didn't vote in the election in 2016 for president because they got brainwashed into hating Hillary Clinton by ads and propaganda? How many of you voted Green Party "To show them~!" or didn't vote at all? How many of you, the day after the election and since, have just whined on forums every day without knowing what really is going to come? I'm no better, I'm just as much of a criminal in negligence. And I am just as ashamed about it all as the rest of you should be. But I realize that words aren't working when the other side knows you're bluffing. And you should too.

How many of you liberals blame "the government" for a system that has protected you your entire life, that has given you everything you could hope for, just because you saw enough of Putin's ads on social media brainwashing you into believing that the American system was wrong? That we all need to run behind safe space walls and hide because the world is bad?

How many of you talk about how Capitalism is terrible, how helping other people around the world is terrible, all because you want the government to pay more of your stupid loans and to coddle you until you're 35? Seriously, do you know how fucking stupid you sound to a lot of people when you complain about how you don't get subsidized everything because obviously Capitalism prevents you from being able to despite the fact that the Global market is the reason you have it better than essentially everyone else in the world? Seriously, suck it the fuck up, pay your taxes, pay your student loans, and be happy that there's a system in place out there protecting you from even worse things than Capitalism.

Where do you think those businesses and business owners are going to go if you get your liberal wet dream of 100% taxation or something approaching it? What do you think will happen if you force all businesses to give their employees $30 an hour, 26 weeks of maternity leave, 26 weeks of paid vacation, 26 weeks of sick days, 26 weeks of vacation time, 26 weeks of Xbox time, and company cars to boot? And still tax them at 80%+? Do you think they will sit here and go bankrupt, or do you think they will abandon the US and move elsewhere?

While you were demanding transgender bathrooms, the right took away your country from you. Because they had their eyes on the prize while you were easily distracted by minutia. If you think they are going to be fair about letting you get it back, you're fucking delusional. They will continue to lie, cheat, child molest, and beat up people in the name of Jesus to keep the demand for a Christian Dictatorship in place.

And let's be honest, here. That's what the right wants. They want a Putin-style dictatorship with Christian laws governing your ability to think. They want class war, so long as it stays beneath their class. They want every thing that America is not about. They wipe their asses with the US Constitution. Because they can. Because they no longer care about the United States. They care about their little tribe of baby-raping Jesus Freak Billionaires who can grab all the pussy they want from the women locked in the kitchen.

And if it means putting child molesters into power so that you can no longer have control over what you do online or with your body while teaching the 10 Commandments in pre-school, then so be it.

By all means, picket and protest. But for the love of God, start stockpiling the ammunition, and start thinking about the future and what you want from it.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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GodEatGod
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 04:21 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote






"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey

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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 04:27 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Nah. I think I'll continue to rant a bit. But thanks for your input, it's always appreciated.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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Cherokee Jack
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 04:37 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote

I’ll get into some more detail later, and your heart seems like it’s in the right place, but this is like 3 or 4 good (if not exactly groundbreaking) observations buried under a mountain of straw man bullshit and incoherent rambling that makes it tough to take any of it seriously.





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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 04:55 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Pick it apart as you see fit. Or don't. It's morning Facebook ranting in reply to other morning Facebook ranting by far-left idiots with no concept of reality. There's heaps of hyperbole in there on purpose. Or have you never read any of my rants? There's no Strawman in there, although your ad hominem is noticeable.

But yeah, then coffee happened and now I am off to the vet with a cat. I hope it's enlightened or otherwise amused your morning activities. And if it bruised some of your fragile little egos just a bit? Then all the better.





ETA: But if you do decide to pick it apart, please use facts and cite your references. Not opinions and "gut feelings" of what you believe is correct pushed as fact. Thanks in advance! xoxoxox

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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CCharger
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 05:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil

When do you stop bitching on Facebook groups and Twitter and forums about how terrible Trump is and pick up a sign and a gun and go to the streets and stay on the streets about it?

But for the love of God, start stockpiling the ammunition, and start thinking about the future and what you want from it.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

Because I believe in the rule of law. Until I feel that the Constitution and the institutions built to enforce and protect the law have been compromised, I will choose to lawfully exercise my right to free speech and protest.

Believe me, I understand your sense of anger and helplessness, but suggesting violent rebellion is daft and irresponsible. I certainly wouldn't want some right wing whack job writing your rant about Obama.

Or country is great because it allows us to peacefully transition power frequently. Trump is a threat to democracy, but I believe our institutions are strong enough to withstand it. Democracy grinds slow, but grinds fine.

Also, don't drop this shitsandwich at the feet of the left wingers. We've been pushing a populist left wing agenda since Occupy Wall Street. It was people like you - centrist, establishment Democrats - who aligned with the elitists and alienated half of the country. Now your angry thatat young Bernie supporters won't take up guns and fight Trump so you can have your neoliberalism back? Fuck, man, that takes a lot of arrogance.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by CCharger]





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TownOfDalem
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 05:06 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
But if you do decide to pick it apart, please use facts and cite your references. Not opinions and "gut feelings" of what you believe is correct pushed as fact.


I amount of irony and stupidity stuffed into these two sentences this is rather impressive.





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posted on 12-5-2017 at 06:13 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
1) I agree with almost everything Quentil says here
2) I know for a fact that a lot of liberals and lefties have armed themselves; as opposed to the righties they just aren't dumb enough to go on social media and brag about it, or to walk around a WalMart carrying an AR-15 to show off what a "real man" they are
3) As a cynic and a fatalist who has almost zero faith now in anything the human race does, the end (in a new Dark Ages sense) is probably coming, and a lot faster than anyone wants to believe; Trump is just the first of Armageddon's horsemen to appear and the other much worse ones will be following in his wake
4) No offense to any Americans personally so don't take it that way, but your faith in your institutions and national myths is childish at best; none of you are any more special than anyone else on this planet and neither is your country; everything ends eventually, and there's nothing particularly "exceptional" about your nation that is going to prevent it from happening to you; your misfortune is that it gets to happen in your lifetimes - there's nothing fair about that but then again what the fuck is fair about anything anywhere anyway?





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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 07:20 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
But if you do decide to pick it apart, please use facts and cite your references. Not opinions and "gut feelings" of what you believe is correct pushed as fact.


I amount of irony and stupidity stuffed into these two sentences this is rather impressive.


I find the vaguely smug insult in your one sentence to be sad and predictable and even indirectly the sort of thing to be partially the cause for my silly rant.

If you are a liberal and believe your way is right, then express it with financial details and political acumen showing how your systems will be better than the existing ones. And back it up with more than personal attacks and whining on a forum or the twitterverse. Don't say, "The fucking greedy corporations are terrible and should be abolished!" or "We should defund the military!" without offering up something workable. Pull your head out of your ass full of daydreams and rainbows and elitist smugness and show us plebeians the true path to enlightenment. And buy a gun and stock up on ammo, just in case. And be prepared to organize and pull the trigger if/when the time comes. But go ahead, explain your system of government and how it can be workable. With more than, "Once we take control of the government, this will happen!"

I'm happy to see your work on this.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 07:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger

Because I believe in the rule of law. Until I feel that the Constitution and the institutions built to enforce and protect the law have been compromised, I will choose to lawfully exercise my right to free speech and protest.



Where did I say that I don't have similar beliefs? Hmm? But your belief needs to be backed up with the threat of action. Oh, and actual action.


quote:

Believe me, I understand your sense of anger and helplessness, but suggesting violent rebellion is daft and irresponsible. I certainly wouldn't want some right wing whack job writing your rant about Obama.



You honestly have a reading comprehension issue at times, I think. Show me where I am advocating instant rebellion? I'm saying to prepare for it, and actually do something other than bitch online. Which is pretty much the extent of your efforts, I think.

quote:

Or country is great because it allows us to peacefully transition power frequently. Trump is a threat to democracy, but I believe our institutions are strong enough to withstand it. Democracy grinds slow, but grinds fine.


I applaud your optimism. Now go do something.

quote:

Also, don't drop this shitsandwich at the feet of the left wingers. We've been pushing a populist left wing agenda since Occupy Wall Street. It was people like you - centrist, establishment Democrats - who aligned with the elitists and alienated half of the country. Now your angry thatat young Bernie supporters won't take up guns and fight Trump so you can have your neoliberalism back? Fuck, man, that takes a lot of arrogance.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by CCharger]


You did nothing with your safe spaces, your transgender bathrooms, your demand that corporations pay 100% taxes, and your camping out on Wall Street for a few weeks. Your petitions and your smug belief that everything will magically change 'just because' is tiring.

Centrist Democrats aren't really to blame, no matter how much you want it to be the case. At least not any more to blame than you. All the far left seems to have done is what the far left typically does: They whine and want the world to change around them, not to change to understand the world. They say everyone else is just being mean to them, then allow them to continue to be mean to them. Because confrontation is too hard. I mean, you have to actually do something and put yourself at risk. And fuck that, amirite?

You honestly have displayed a shocking lack of understanding on how economics, politics, the world, and even your neighbors are. Do something more than complain on social media and insulting others that try to entice you to actually do something that matters.

Because this is why you lose. Again and again. You say you aren't going to do what others want, but then demand that everyone else do what you want. And when called on it, you run and hide and scream on social media using a fake name. Well, guess what? The right figured it out and continues to call your bluff and watch you run further and further as they gobble up your rights a bit at a time.

Stop running. Stop blaming me. If you trust the system so much, work with your more conservative branch of your own party (all while making it a point to declare yourself to be "independent" like it means something. Psst, it doesn't.) But you won't, will you? Nobody is fucking talking about Bernie Sanders but you. I mean, Bernie is a nice guy, but you have to realize deep down that his policies are unworkable as stated, right? Even he couldn't come up with the money to explain how to pay for even a fraction of it. The 2016 eleciton should have been a wake up call. But instead of owning it and evolving into a more active and productive person, you scream and blame your parents while also expecting your parents to change the world for you to exactly what you want it to be.

It's time to be adults, time to own up to your failings, and to arm up in case things continue to get worse. To not think about the aggressive nature and possibility of things is criminally negligent. What are you going to do if you go to vote (which most of you don't do, anyhow, according to the numbers) and Billy Bob the Republican is there armed with a rifle and blocking Democrats from voting? And the police are right there acting as if they don't see a thing? What are you going to do then? Sue?

So please, tell me your plan. Use actual numbers and explain how you are going to get your Utopia. Start with Day One, and explain to me how you're gonna do it. How are you gonna get people like me, who are already mostly on your side, to listen to you? Much less the folks who are further along on the right? Tell me how you're going to both keep the economy strong but also punish all businesses who become successful. How you're going to keep security up after you gut 90% of the military. How you're going to deal with the increased losses of jobs to technology and automation without resorting to forced manual jobs that are less efficient, and subsidized factories that will make the workers not give a shit at all.

I'm lobbing a broadside to motivate you. I'm trying to get you to move to action. Because so long as there's no better option, the only option eventually will be violence.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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TownOfDalem
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 08:35 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
But if you do decide to pick it apart, please use facts and cite your references. Not opinions and "gut feelings" of what you believe is correct pushed as fact.


I amount of irony and stupidity stuffed into these two sentences this is rather impressive.


I find the vaguely smug insult in your one sentence to be sad and predictable and even indirectly the sort of thing to be partially the cause for my silly rant.

If you are a liberal and believe your way is right, then express it with financial details and political acumen showing how your systems will be better than the existing ones. And back it up with more than personal attacks and whining on a forum or the twitterverse. Don't say, "The fucking greedy corporations are terrible and should be abolished!" or "We should defund the military!" without offering up something workable. Pull your head out of your ass full of daydreams and rainbows and elitist smugness and show us plebeians the true path to enlightenment. And buy a gun and stock up on ammo, just in case. And be prepared to organize and pull the trigger if/when the time comes. But go ahead, explain your system of government and how it can be workable. With more than, "Once we take control of the government, this will happen!"

I'm happy to see your work on this.


Let's go through this very interesting timeline:

Quentil Post 1: Whine, whine. Cry, cry. Ramble, ramble. Don't include any substance or facts. Whine some more.

Quentil Post 2: If you disagree I better see some facts and citations!

Quentil Post 3: Whine, Cry, Ramble. Where are the facts and citations to disprove my rambling!

Quentil Post 4: Whine, Cry, Ramble, Suplex, Repeat.

Yup, you are very impressive indeed.





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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 09:18 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem

Let's go through this very interesting timeline:

Quentil Post 1: Whine, whine. Cry, cry. Ramble, ramble. Don't include any substance or facts. Whine some more.

Quentil Post 2: If you disagree I better see some facts and citations!

Quentil Post 3: Whine, Cry, Ramble. Where are the facts and citations to disprove my rambling!

Quentil Post 4: Whine, Cry, Ramble, Suplex, Repeat.

Yup, you are very impressive indeed.


Hmm, I don't see this, but okay. I'll show you my thoughts on how to effect change with actual details if you show me yours. Let's go. Or are you just going to stay being a smug asshole that doesn't actually say anything other than insults? Because that too was part of my original rant.

The "NOT ME, YOU!" argument on your part is about as spoiled and babyish as can be. Let's see some numbers and plans. Prove me wrong. I don't think that you can, to be honest. I think all you have is being a selfish crybaby victimization to fall back on, afraid to do anything that might risk your self-created delusion.

Prove me wrong. Or shut the fuck up.

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Cherokee Jack
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 09:24 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Perhaps you meant to start this thread on another site. Please cite references as to where people that you’re replying to suggested/called for the various things you say they’re suggesting/calling for, including but not limited to:

“100% taxation”
“punish all businesses who become successful”
“gut 90% of the military”

I’m happy to see your work on this.





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TownOfDalem
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 10:20 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem

Let's go through this very interesting timeline:

Quentil Post 1: Whine, whine. Cry, cry. Ramble, ramble. Don't include any substance or facts. Whine some more.

Quentil Post 2: If you disagree I better see some facts and citations!

Quentil Post 3: Whine, Cry, Ramble. Where are the facts and citations to disprove my rambling!

Quentil Post 4: Whine, Cry, Ramble, Suplex, Repeat.

Yup, you are very impressive indeed.


Hmm, I don't see this, but okay. I'll show you my thoughts on how to effect change with actual details if you show me yours. Let's go. Or are you just going to stay being a smug asshole that doesn't actually say anything other than insults? Because that too was part of my original rant.

The "NOT ME, YOU!" argument on your part is about as spoiled and babyish as can be. Let's see some numbers and plans. Prove me wrong. I don't think that you can, to be honest. I think all you have is being a selfish crybaby victimization to fall back on, afraid to do anything that might risk your self-created delusion.

Prove me wrong. Or shut the fuck up.


Quentil Post 5: Whine, Cry, Ramble. I'll post facts to prove my rambling if you first disprove it! I'ts your job to prove the opinion that I assigned to you! Cry, Ramble, Rubber, Glue. Now I've won!

I don't particularly care if you agree with or even know what I think. Heck, we might even agree for all I know. You don't actual express any beliefs other then a dislike for the fact that apparently liberals don't own enough guns. It's the hilarious idiocy of the "rational" behind your posts in this thread that I find impressive.

But I'm generous so I'll give you a chance. Did you spend over a thousand words to say "I think liberals want things that are unrealistic?", because I was able to express that thought in under a dozen words.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by TownOfDalem]





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posted on 12-5-2017 at 10:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cherokee Jack
Please cite references as to where people that you’re replying to suggested/called for the various things you say they’re suggesting/calling for, including but not limited to:

“100% taxation”
“punish all businesses who become successful”
“gut 90% of the military”

I’m happy to see your work on this.




Didn't Bernie Sanders say, that one day in that one interview with that one person who works for that one media company, and I quote:

quote:
Originally said by Bernie Sanders that one day in that one interview with that one person who works for that one media company

I believe in 100% taxation. Among other things it would do, it will punish all businesses who become successful. Also and completely unrelated, we should gut 90% of the military.





If it wasn't Bernie who said it, it was that other person. You know - the one with the silly shoes.





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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 10:46 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cherokee Jack
Perhaps you meant to start this thread on another site. Please cite references as to where people that you’re replying to suggested/called for the various things you say they’re suggesting/calling for, including but not limited to:

“100% taxation”
“punish all businesses who become successful”
“gut 90% of the military”

I’m happy to see your work on this.


First off, I think it's hilarious that you feel I wouldn't supply some links. I'm never going to call someone out and then not place myself in the line of fire for a fair retaliation. Because i'm not a hypocrite like so many others. At least not in that respect. I'm sure I'm a total hypocrite in plenty of other ways. But as far as links to support my points? I've linked many times on these very boards, and no doubt will again.

As far as your claims? I already said my post was from an amalgamation of morning social media readings and a also a rant. But it's fine, I'm happy to show examples of what I was cited today and yesterday. And c'mon, you know the far left wants much higher taxes on businesses, seems to want to punish successful businesses, and to gut the military. It's part of their declared social media platform. But they never seem to have a path to do all of this that won't show the basic flaws in their premise. But since you're so damned sexy when you try to be coy and clever, here you go:
---

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/18/news/economy/france-tax-rich-election-melenchon/index.html

"High taxes have contributed to an exodus of millionaires from France."

"Cut France's working week to four days
More vacation days for workers
Raise minimum wage by 16%
Increase the tax on inherited wealth
Abandon nuclear power; 100% renewable energy by 2050
No new free trade agreements
Leave NATO, the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization
Nationalize French energy company EDF and gas provider Engie"

These are essentially similar to the demands of the far left in the US. I can spend a bit of time and dig up some examples with a bit of Googling, if you'd like. Or you can. I'm sure there's plenty, and I've seen more than a few to base this belief on.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/can-we-fix-debt-solely-taxing-top-1-percent

"A popular suggestion is that raising taxes only on high earners (for example, the top one percent – households that make above roughly $435,000 annually) would fix the debt problem....By our math, achieving a balanced budget by 2025 by raising the top two rates – those which only apply to income significantly above $400,000 – would require increasing the top individual tax rate from 39.6 percent to about 102 percent. This is an obvious impossibility, since few taxpayers would continue to work at a 100 percent tax rate."


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/22/economists-tax-rich_n_6024430.html

"The top tax rate that makes all citizens, including the highest 1 percent of earners, the best off is “somewhere between 85 and 90 percent,” Krueger told The Huffington Post. Currently, the top rate of 39.6 percent is paid on income above $406,750 for individuals and $457,600 for couples."

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/a-foreign-policy-for-the-left

"As the extent of left opposition to the Iraq War suggests, the readiness to use force abroad is only an intermittent version of left politics. A wholesale rejection of the use of force (and a reflexive refusal to vote for the military budget) is the more usual position. On the farther left, especially, there is a deep suspicion of anything that smacks of militarism, and almost all leftists are eager to support the peacemakers, whenever peace is a real possibility (and sometimes when it isn’t). Hence one standard argument, which is another version of the default position: it is only militarists and imperialists who go to war in other people’s countries; leftist men and women understand that it is better to keep the “boys” (as all soldiers once were) at home. William Appleman Williams, who greatly influenced New Left attitudes toward foreign policy, argued that “The truly essential need is to re-examine our conception of saving other people and societies.” The New Left, he wrote, should pursue instead a vision “based on self-containment and community. . . .""

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Green_Party_Tax_Reform.htm

"We can afford to cut taxes for most people if we make corporations and the super-rich pay their fair share. Then we can cut them even more when we halt our nation's wasteful spending on wars, weaponry and militarism.
We call for progressive taxation, shifting tax from individuals to corporations, taxing "bads" not "goods," taxing unearned income at the same rate as earned income, taxing speculation on Wall Street, and cutting corporate tax giveaways."

" We must take aggressive steps to restore a FAIR DISTRIBUTION OF INCOME. We support tax incentives for businesses that apply fair employee wage distributions standards, and income tax policies that restrict the accumulation of excessive individual wealth."

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burnett/why-we-should-reduce-the-_b_3115515.html

"The NIC report indicates that we’re rapidly moving towards a quadripartite world governed by the U.S., China, India, and the European Community. In such a world, it makes no sense for America to shoulder most of the responsibility for policing the world and absorbing 42 percent of military spending.

Now is the time for Democrats to drastically reduce America’s defense budget."

https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0427/p09s01-coop.html

"To really keep us safe, we should slash defense spending. Americans should prepare for fewer wars, not different ones. Far from providing our defense, our military posture endangers us. It drags us into others' conflicts, provokes animosity, and wastes resources. We need a defense budget worthy of the name. We need military restraint. And that would allow us to cut defense spending roughly in half."

(My own Thought) For what it's worth, I mostly agree with this stance. Although I feel cutting to 50% in a short period of time would be more than is able to be assimilated into the overall economy without massive job losses.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/defense/plan-cut-military-spending

(In reply to the idea of large cuts done quickly)

"Cuts guided by restraint would save far more than those offered by the most popular method of reducing spending, which is to target “waste, fraud, and abuse."

http://www.syracuse.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/08/jill_stein_on_11_key_issues_where_does_green_party_presidential_candidate_stand.html

"...cut off all foreign aid to nation's she (Jill Stein) deems as "human rights abusers," including U.S. allies Israel, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. She would cut U.S. military spending by at least 50 percent and close more than 700 foreign military bases. "

Also, here's some other light reading for you that addresses the basic points:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/5-bad-arguments-cutting-us-security-spending-15002
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/defense/plan-cut-military-spending

---
My summation:

1) The far left wants to slash military spending quickly, using a variation of "America First." There's lots of proof to this. The far left pushes isolationism as much as the far right. They feel it's not in the USA's best interest to help other nations around the world, nor to push an American agenda on them. This accepts the fact that the USA will lose both financial and military clout to nations like Russia and China and is fine with that. The expectation is that cutting the military by "at least half" over a short period of time will somehow fix everything wrong with America while at the same time not making the world around us a worse place.

2) The far left wants to impose unreasonable taxes on the richest people and businesses, not allowing for the fact that it's very likely that all that will happen is that those businesses and people will simply set up shop elsewhere. This is out of a belief that corporations are inherently evil, and that they need to be punished to make the fact that they are profitable more "fair." The far left pushes for an economic model that isn't unlike that pushed in Cold War Eastern Europe. And there's plenty of studies that show how that particular economic model encouraged nothing but slipshod products and economic stagnation and didn't improve the well being of the poor at all. Again, it's not my job to link these studies to you, but I will if you're too lazy to Google them yourself. Because I'm happy to help people educate themselves.

3) The far left believes that a drastic cutting to the military, coupled with hugely increased taxes on the rich will have an immediate trickle down effect that will keep prices low, keep unemployment low, keep innovation high, and solve all social differences between the rich and the poor. They refuse to believe that what will happen is encroachment on American allies and needs by unfriendly regimes that will hurt the United States, or that large businesses and rich folks will simply move their enterprises and money elsewhere. These are foolish beliefs.

Now, am I wrong? Does the far left not want to gut the military and also to hugely increase taxes on to "punish the rich and corporations?" I mean, several of the posters here have said that very same thing, and they claim to be from the far left. So again, how am I wrong?

Show me. Do some work other than forwarding a meme that you know probably isn't true but that you believe should be true and show me. Or go the usual route of ad hominem. Your call.

[Edited on 12-6-2017 by Quentil]

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Flash
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 10:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I thought it was a passionate post, albeit one that probably intentionally took things to their most extreme, with a conclusion or suggested course of action that may be the ultimate outcome to some extent or another, would be a very bad day should it come to pass.

I think you have to start with a belief in something; universal health care, getting rid of assault weapons, racial and gender harmony, a world free from violence; and then probably lob some big ideas out there like what would happen if the USA devoted its military budget to education, healthcare and social programs for even one year... would it suddenly put the US military in a free fall, or would it create a strong foundation for equal access to stuff that should be basic human rights... that solution isn't probably realistic, but you do have to dream big because eventually there will be an idea that might get you there.... there's always going to be dissent on how to get there; nonsense stuff like occupying parks to really show those fat cats, or bold stuff like the affordable care act which for a host of reasons didn't quite work out like many people who needed it would want it to.

As an outsider I see Trump and many who would follow him as the easy way... as in its easy to give in to xenophobia, racism, fear imminent war and just about everything else, anger, and to want to buy into the probably broken American dream still existing... that Normal Rockwell painting-like America can still exist even if that would was built on oppressing and alienating others in many cases. I think being a liberal is harder, and truthfully probably a bit more impossible to create... I mean "Utopia" means "no place" in its literal translation; it is probably a place that is never going to universally exist for everyone, but it is a lofty goal to aspire to and a dream worth holding onto.... that there can be a place for everyone to live in good health, safety, and an equal chance at prosperity. Does that mean in some hypothetical ideological war there's apt to be more Democrats lying face down in the blood and mud... probably, but if you compromise your ideals just to win have you really won?

I think most people at their core all want the same things; safety, health, an ability to pursue their passions... we aren't going to all agree on how to get there, but be it Republican or Democrat or Other maybe its time to start genuinely talk about how to get to that utopia, even if you fall short of it... cause right now the USA feels like its only held together with duct tape and anger; and seeing it completely broken seems like a far more likely outcome... and avoiding that should be the real American Dream.

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posted on 12-5-2017 at 10:56 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem
Quentil Post 5: Whine, Cry, Ramble. I'll post facts to prove my rambling if you first disprove it! I'ts your job to prove the opinion that I assigned to you! Cry, Ramble, Rubber, Glue. Now I've won!

I don't particularly care if you agree with or even know what I think. Heck, we might even agree for all I know. You don't actual express any beliefs other then a dislike for the fact that apparently liberals don't own enough guns. It's the hilarious idiocy of the "rational" behind your posts in this thread that I find impressive.

But I'm generous so I'll give you a chance. Did you spend over a thousand words to say "I think liberals want things that are unrealistic?", because I was able to express that thought in under a dozen words.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by TownOfDalem]


Woo hoo, more ad hominem without any actual support of your own thoughts. More attacks on things without taking the proper context. How adorable. <3 I guess you decided to neither prove anything wrong or to shut the fuck up. Just to continue the insults. Thanks for playing, please drive through. And I'll happily rant however long I'd like to, thanks. It's called a "rant" after all. But I can keep it simple for you for your eventual smug reply:

If you do not care what I think outside of attacking it while ignoring the actual points, then you have nothing of value to add to the conversation. I would simply say to 'shut the fuck up' again, but that's overly harsh and I apologize. You have the right to speak and say whatever you'd like. Even take a thousand words to do it. I don't mind. But until you say something other than essentially "you're talking a lot and you're a loser because I say so" I no longer feel the need to reply to you personally. I wish you the best, and hope you stay the awesome snowflake that you are.

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Quentil
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posted on 12-5-2017 at 11:37 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flash
I thought it was a passionate post, albeit one that probably intentionally took things to their most extreme, with a conclusion or suggested course of action that may be the ultimate outcome to some extent or another, would be a very bad day should it come to pass.




Holy crap, someone that understands what a "morning rant in reply to social media" is. Thanks. Of course I used some hyperbole, and said as much in my opening comments...But the core is centered in fact. I do appreciate you showing basic comprehension, though. Thank you.

quote:

I think you have to start with a belief in something; universal health care, getting rid of assault weapons, racial and gender harmony, a world free from violence; and then probably lob some big ideas out there like what would happen if the USA devoted its military budget to education, healthcare and social programs for even one year... would it suddenly put the US military in a free fall, or would it create a strong foundation for equal access to stuff that should be basic human rights... that solution isn't probably realistic, but you do have to dream big because eventually there will be an idea that might get you there.... there's always going to be dissent on how to get there; nonsense stuff like occupying parks to really show those fat cats, or bold stuff like the affordable care act which for a host of reasons didn't quite work out like many people who needed it would want it to.



This is essentially what I think as well. Dream big, but understand compromise is needed. The far left seemingly refuses to want to compromise at all in their beliefs. This makes them just as dangerous and ignorant as the far right. Excluding everyone else's beliefs as being completely wrong is not the proper way to go about Democracy.

quote:

As an outsider I see Trump and many who would follow him as the easy way... as in its easy to give in to xenophobia, racism, fear imminent war and just about everything else, anger, and to want to buy into the probably broken American dream still existing... that Normal Rockwell painting-like America can still exist even if that would was built on oppressing and alienating others in many cases. I think being a liberal is harder, and truthfully probably a bit more impossible to create... I mean "Utopia" means "no place" in its literal translation; it is probably a place that is never going to universally exist for everyone, but it is a lofty goal to aspire to and a dream worth holding onto.... that there can be a place for everyone to live in good health, safety, and an equal chance at prosperity. Does that mean in some hypothetical ideological war there's apt to be more Democrats lying face down in the blood and mud... probably, but if you compromise your ideals just to win have you really won?



Nothing wrong with preparing for the worst while trying to push for the best. And again, the far left seems to be just as xenophobic and isolationist as the Trumpsters are. Whenever I ask someone from the far left what they want to do about foreign policy, they usually shut up or mumble some vagueness because in the end it comes down to, "Be isolationist. Ignore the rest of the world and live in our socialized Utopia." I think this is a silly thing to want, and will happily rip into the idea. There's no such thing as being both isolationist and being successful in today's world. The USA can't sustain itself at the expense of ignoring everyone else. Especially as we are an importer nation. If you believe that isolationism at the expense of affecting other world events is the way to go, please explain to me as to why. (I mean, this as a general statement to the fringe left, not to you specifically, heh.) But yes, explain to me how higher tariffs and increased trade barriers will help innovation and keep prices low while supplying more jobs. Because the economists over five centuries haven't come up with a workable long-term way to do it using these methods. Perhaps you can be the first.

quote:

I think most people at their core all want the same things; safety, health, an ability to pursue their passions... we aren't going to all agree on how to get there, but be it Republican or Democrat or Other maybe its time to start genuinely talk about how to get to that utopia, even if you fall short of it... cause right now the USA feels like its only held together with duct tape and anger; and seeing it completely broken seems like a far more likely outcome... and avoiding that should be the real American Dream.


I agree. My thoughts:

As far I see it, cutting the military by small amounts over 20 years is the best way to do it. Barring another serious war affecting the instant needs of things, we can eventually cut the military by about 20-25%, adjusted for inflation. This would be done with helping our allies increase their military ability via increased subsidized arms sales to them. Make them still pay for them, but give them a nice discount. This keeps American businesses and people working, while slowly removing some of the basic apparatus of a military industrial complex syndrome that folks are angry at. Any cuts to the military need to be done over a large period of time, and to incorporate needs as they change. And even after cuts are made, we should still spend more than everyone else and protect our allies.

Democrats need to go after the Senate and House as a priority at the expense of the presidency. And they need to do this on a platform built around Globalization and not pretending the world around us doesn't exist. This belief is built on the idea that the world simply cannot be ignored in how either the far right or the fringe left so desperately seems to want.

Education expenditures are enough. Perhaps even too much. But I'm fine with just freezing them at current levels for the time being. There's a lot of obvious waste in the system that can be removed. We don't need a rapid cash infusion into a system we already spend more money on than like the top 10 or whatever other countries combined. We should allow for lost cost student loans and outright grants to the poor and middle class in regards to college, but further subsidizing a broken system isn't gonna fix anything. I believe free college is a sustainable goal, so long as a fair way to balance it with expenses is found. And i do think the "fair way" is to tax the rich at a higher rate.

Democrats arming themselves is simply tit for tat and leveling the playing field. You know the far right is willing to shoot the liberals if they feel it'll help them "win." The left needs to show that this tactic would be bloody and not worth the effort. You'll simply see an increase of violent attacks on liberals if they fail to show the ability to defend themselves. I suggest that laws are there for perfectly legal firearm ownership that should be used to do this, and that better organization at rallies is a must.

I'm all for higher taxes on the richest 1%. But 80-100% on income over 500k (or whatever) is just plain dumb. And stupid. And idiotic. Sorry, I'm trying to up my word count here. The current highest rate is about 40%. Well, not counting the tax plan about to be put into motion, which will be a terrible thing. But we're talking the future. I think we could raise the tax rate on the rich to 50%, incorporating it in 1%-2% increases over a period of 15-20 years. This, coupled with a similar decrease in military spending, would help to balance the budget without destroying the basic fabric of businesses in the United States, or to cut social programs that help the poor and middle class.

Fossil fuels need to go, but we need to manage it without destroying jobs. I really have no viable way to improve things, here. I know that in NY, we've managed to reduce carbon emissions and increase renewable energies fairly substantially over the past decade, and this has been done with a gridlocked and split state government full of corruption. So if we can manage it, then it must be possible. I think Obama was doing a fabulous job here, outside of arguably pushing fracking. But since I see the upsides to fracking more than the downsides, it's hard for me to bitch too much about that as well.

The best I can come up with is to push more renewables while buying out the older fossil fuel energy producers with taxpayer dollars and shutting them down as renewables come online to replace them. The problem is that neither the left nor the right believes this is the way to go about things. Both sides have issues with using taxpayer dollars to either "punish fossil fuels and reduce free enterprise" or to "reward fossil fuels with taxpayer dollars."

I'd suggest that an increase in fuel prices by a small amount for everyone to fund whatever happens is a must. Cheap gas needs to be a thing of the past in order to stop people from using it. This is a core belief on my part. And I know that in the short term, this would hurt the poor and middle class more than the rich. But by all means, feel free to argue it and show me where I'm wrong and how you could do better. Increasing fuel standards and sticking with them are a key as well. This is also politically unpopular, and I don't know how to rectify this personally without snorting pixie dust.

Oh, and immigration? Let everyone in that want to come in, with reason. If needed, prop up the system with more people and more dollars until it can assimilate the current backlogs and push for a path to expand legal worker visas for non-Americans. Immigrants are a good thing, and a vital thing, to increase the overall wealth and power of the USA.

These are basic examples of how I think we could form a coalition of enough groups to push real, sustainable change that most Americans would support, or at least tolerate. Democrats should work on the philosophy of, "Compromise, small steps at a time" with the backing of a dedicated, united, and armed party of progressives willing to work within the system until it's no longer possible. And then to be ready for what happens then.

Anyhow, another 1000 words probably typed. Sorry about making you all read. But not really. And I do love you all. Even the folks openly attacking me. xoxoxo


[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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posted on 12-6-2017 at 12:54 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl

Didn't Bernie Sanders say, that one day in that one interview with that one person who works for that one media company, and I quote:



It's kind of ironic, because I know you were trying to be funny and probably to shame me a bit. Or maybe you weren't. But I googled good old Bernie just for shits and giggles because he's definitely the demagogue of the far left. And lots of fun links essentially proving my points were readily seen:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-18/bernie-sanders-flirted-with-100-percent-marginal-tax-on-the-rich-maximum-wage

https://thinkprogress.org/bernie-sanders-would-tax-the-income-of-the-wealthiest-americans-at-90-percent-3b7d5881c64a/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/bernie-sanders-used-to-think-there-should-be-a-maximum-wage/416790/


And yet:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2015/12/18/bernie-sanders-and-the-90-income-tax-rate-that-he-does-not-call-for/#45732dd969dc

But Also:

https://breakingdefense.com/2016/02/feel-the-bern-what-a-sanders-military-might-look-like/

"Sanders made approving references to the social programs of Scandinavian countries such as Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. They spend about 1.3% of GDP on defense (about the European NATO average). The United States in 2016 is spending 3.1 percent of GDP on defense (excluding war funding). Slicing that to 1.3 percent of GDP would produce a DoD budget of about $235 billion, still the largest military budget in the world but less than half of today’s $535 billion. "

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/bernie-sanders-defense-budget-pentagon-219386

"In 1995, he introduced a bill to terminate America’s nuclear weapons program. As late as 2002, he supported a 50 percent cut for the Pentagon."

Google is so much fun. And yet so simple! Now, I'm happy to have some of you tell me again how I'm wrong about the far left. I like being called names for being essentially correct.

[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 12-6-2017 at 01:12 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cherokee Jack
Perhaps you meant to start this thread on another site. Please cite references as to where people that you’re replying to suggested/called for the various things you say they’re suggesting/calling for, including but not limited to:

“100% taxation”
“punish all businesses who become successful”
“gut 90% of the military”

I’m happy to see your work on this.


Looks like it wasn't all that difficult to find. Someone somewhere reading this now after the list of Bernie quotes was produces is having a good laugh and getting to say their favourite line of how "shit like this is why Trump got elected".





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posted on 12-6-2017 at 01:52 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm clearly in the minority here, but I enjoyed reading that rant. You're right, man, a lot of what enabled him to get elected was complacency on the left, and it helped him hold a position that he never should have gotten within distance of.

Sometimes, you need some tough love and some blunt talk to get your point across. Even though it may have been extreme in some instances, we should always be prepared for different scenarios playing out.





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posted on 12-6-2017 at 04:09 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
If this thread is inspiring you to nominate someone for Jackass of the Year, or Poster of the Year, or Obtusetiest...or you see a good flame...the bOOardies are up so get nominating.


CLICK HERE





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posted on 12-6-2017 at 02:23 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil



[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]



You have established that neither extreme can competently run the government.

In other news, water is wet.





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posted on 12-6-2017 at 04:23 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil


[Edited on 12-5-2017 by Quentil]

Color me shocked that an elitist, centrist Democratic Hillary supporter would be arrogant enough to presume to know what I do an don't do outside of a wrestling message board, and then insist that anyone who doesn't agree with your dangerous, bat shit crazy ideas are somehow more ignorant and less intelligent than you.

I have to hand it to you...it takes balls to be THAT much of a douche for all the world to see.

Sorry that Bernie wants to take away all that sweet, sweet corporate money from you and give it toward people and projects that you don't like, and take away all your sweet, sweet tanks and bombs and put it toward diplomacy and education. Sorry that your type of "liberalism" has passed into the dustbin of history and you are lashing out with what meager ideas you have left.

You don't run America anymore. #sorrynotsorry

quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot

4) No offense to any Americans personally so don't take it that way, but your faith in your institutions and national myths is childish at best; none of you are any more special than anyone else on this planet and neither is your country; everything ends eventually, and there's nothing particularly "exceptional" about your nation that is going to prevent it from happening to you

I find it interesting that those who aren't Americans behave like they know more about America than...you know...the PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE HERE.

You're right. America has no more intrinsic value than India or Canada or Cuba. Those countries and others are fine and deserve to exist and prosper. But to suggest our country isn't BETTER is ludicrous. That's like saying the New England Patriots aren't more special than the Cleveland Browns.

We are the most economically and militarily powerful country in the history of the world. We have achieved more scientific and technological advances in our brief history than all other nations combined. And as far as the faith in our institutions and "national myths"? The US Constitution is the world's oldest governing document and our country is the world's oldest active representative democracy. It survived a British military invasion, the burning of our capitol, a civil war, two world wars, a global depression, multiple presidential assassinations and political conspiracies like Watergate. So, yeah, Trump is a pimple on the ass of history and he isn't going to threaten our "national myths".

So after your country wins two world wars, and a Cold War, and then culturally conquers the world, and then LANDS A FUCKING MAN ON THE FUCKING MOON, comes talk to me about childish beliefs in my country.

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