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Author: Subject: MAGA
OOMike
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posted on 11-28-2017 at 02:29 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
Just stopping by to say "Fuck Trump", "He's a piece of shit", and "If you voted for him, fuck you, and if you regret voting for him now, double fuck you"


And if you still support him after all this, triple fuck you.





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CCharger
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posted on 11-28-2017 at 04:16 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Well according to the nerds at fivethirtyeight.com, almost 40% of your fellow Americans STILL approve of the job he is doing.





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"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

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Count Zero
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posted on 11-28-2017 at 06:42 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
That's a big list of seasonally-appropriate Fuck You cards to send out. Anybody wanna help me get started over here?





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Thom
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posted on 11-28-2017 at 07:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I wonder how many of that 38.4% really approve - and how many are just too stubborn to admit that they made a mistake in voting for him.





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Flash
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 06:11 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Just picked up a pizza from a place I've been going to for more than 25 years- it's changed owners over the years, but the recipe has stayed the same and is great... tonight I looked up over the cash register and noticed that there was a red Make America Great Again hat, and a photo of a vote Trump picket sign... I asked the girl about them and she said the owner is a big Trump fan; she then confided in me that ever since he put those up business has been down... I said that didn't surprise me as my first thought when I saw them was "well, I'll be enjoying this pizza for the last time now...". To be clear, me and this pizza store are in Canada.

I can understand... with a great deal of head pain brought on by straining my imagination... why some Americans might like Trump, but outside of his more racist behaviour I can't for the life of me fathom why any Canadian would like or support the orange goblin that currently haunts the White House as none of the mechanics of running the USA would have much to do with our governance.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 06:34 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flash
Just picked up a pizza from a place I've been going to for more than 25 years- it's changed owners over the years, but the recipe has stayed the same and is great... tonight I looked up over the cash register and noticed that there was a red Make America Great Again hat, and a photo of a vote Trump picket sign... I asked the girl about them and she said the owner is a big Trump fan; she then confided in me that ever since he put those up business has been down... I said that didn't surprise me as my first thought when I saw them was "well, I'll be enjoying this pizza for the last time now...". To be clear, me and this pizza store are in Canada.

I can understand... with a great deal of head pain brought on by straining my imagination... why some Americans might like Trump, but outside of his more racist behaviour I can't for the life of me fathom why any Canadian would like or support the orange goblin that currently haunts the White House as none of the mechanics of running the USA would have much to do with our governance.


A year or so ago the Manning Center here in Calgary had some kind of multi-day confab about doing better in elections. A couple of kids from the university conservative club were wandering around in their typical prep-school suit and tie attire and they too were also wearing MAGA hats. I guess seeing that in Canada, even here in redneck Alberta, was kind of the final straw for me as far as any association with conservatism goes. I still have a philosophical leaning with at least doing the most to cut as much government waste as possible, an alleged conservative ideal that they trumpet. Well, they trumpet it when conservatives aren't in power anyway. But if the Trumpian idiocy is making it's way across the border and infecting our system then I'll be cutting all my ties with conservatism altogether. I could put up with the blind Reagan worship too many conservatives indulge in. But seeing those kids gladly tie themselves in with a grotesquerie like Trump, and none of the elders at the Manning meetings apparently bothering to slap some sense into them, broke the camels back for me. No more.





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OOMike
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 02:14 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thom
I wonder how many of that 38.4% really approve - and how many are just too stubborn to admit that they made a mistake in voting for him.


Judging by my facebook, they still like him.





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CCharger
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 04:07 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OOMike

Judging by my facebook, they still like him.

Can confirm.

Have several relatives that voted for/support Trump and their devotion to him borders on cult-like.

They don't just like him - they LOVE his orange ass. They think he's hilarious, and they love how he trolls liberals. They love how upset he makes the people they don't like (liberals, gays, Muslims, feminists, blacks, Mexicans).

This guy could anally rape a dwarf on the South Lawn of the White House in full view of news cameras, and his supporters would still scream about a "liberal media conspiracy" that is "out to get" Trump.

I mean if after EVERYTHING this guy has done - the middle school insults, the race baiting, the bungling, the Russia stuff, the tweets, the golfing, etc. - almost 40% of Americans still give him a thumbs up...NOTHING is going to change their minds.

I'm willing to bet that this fucker gets re-elected.





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TownOfDalem
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 05:15 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
I still have a philosophical leaning with at least doing the most to cut as much government waste as possible, an alleged conservative ideal that they trumpet. Well, they trumpet it when conservatives aren't in power anyway.


I've never understood why people fall for the traditional conservative argument (lie) that they are there to cut government waste. It's an argument designed to trick people by conflating government waste with government spending. Those aren't the same thing. Getting rid of waste could easily be a bipartisan issue, but it isn't because it actually requires government spending (aka man hours) to identify waste. Conservatives love to point to the boogieman of poor usually minority people taking advantage of the system and wasting taxpayer money, but I've never seen them propose plans to eliminate loopholes or increase enforcement. The solution is always to just eliminate the program even if it helps millions of people.

To be clear, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. I know shit about Canadian politics, so it may not even fully translate. I'm also not going to pretend that people on the more left side are much better when it comes to policing waste. There is just nothing sexy about setting up agencies to identify and eliminate waste and enforce rules. It's one of those issue that politicians get more out of complaining about then they would out of fixing.





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williamssl
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 05:32 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
I'm willing to bet that this fucker gets re-elected.



If I was Democrat, I'd be pissed as hell about the lack of anything going on in my party to prevent this from happening. Or more broadly speaking, the lack of anything going on anywhere else to prevent this from happening.

Since Trump was elected, the elected Democrats have basically and singularly executed on a "Trump is bad and we are going to ruthlessly point that out and do everything we can to thwart anything he wants to do" agenda, which was essentially Hillary's message during her campaigning as well. Yeah I'm generalizing somewhat, but that is far closer to reality than any competing single descriptive statement. They stole the pages from the Republican playbook ...you know...the ones that resulted in "Obamacare bad repeal replace" and "well we don't really have any replace so...repeal!" idiocy. We know how that turned out.

Hillary is still around in a big way, pointing fingers anywhere and everywhere re: why she lost. In the process, she's keeping the spotlight on herself (because really....when hasn't it been?) which is preventing the party from moving on, or rather contributing to that.

This should be a time of:
* shoving the past into the past and keeping it there, and of course learning from it
* figuring out how to reconcile the 'progressive' left and left centrists parts of the party...
* ...while coming up with a platform that's about doing something that isn't just 'Trump bad' so they have solid issues and solutions to campaign on in the midterms and 2020
* finding the fresh new(er) faces that are going to represent the party and be serious presidential contenders in 2020. (hint: it's not Hillary and probably shouldn't be Biden)

Instead...
Trump bad
Hi I'm Hillary and I'm not going away and fuck everyone and everything for making me lose. I said I'm done with public office but you wouldn't know that from what I'm doing right now.


Get your fucking shit together or at least figure out how to multitask re: both doing the above while being obstruction-y without having obstructionism be the sole thing you stand for and are doing.

Newsflash:
Trump is going to keep Trumping. It's what he does.
People are going to still stick with him and support him no matter what.
People are going to vent about the above two points ad nauseum. See: the top threads in this subforum.

Those are all big boulders rolling down a mountain that have significant momentum already and will just keep on picking up more as they progress. What I would want to see is the throwing of some new rocks to see how what skips vs. sinks..and how far the skippers skip...


I'm sure this is going to get torn apart by the left of centerer's here but before you follow your gut instinct and do that...ask yourself..'what if anything have we done to position ourselves to prevent what ccharger says..."





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CCharger
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 06:36 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl

Get your fucking shit together or at least figure out how to multitask re: both doing the above while being obstruction-y without having obstructionism be the sole thing you stand for and are doing.

Newsflash:
Trump is going to keep Trumping. It's what he does.
People are going to still stick with him and support him no matter what.
People are going to vent about the above two points ad nauseum. See: the top threads in this subforum.


I'm sure this is going to get torn apart by the left of centerer's here but before you follow your gut instinct and do that...ask yourself..'what if anything have we done to position ourselves to prevent what ccharger says..."


I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I'm arguably the most vocal commie pinko liberal on this site.

You hit the nail on the head with "Trump is going to keep Trumping". Nothing the Dems do will change that, and nothing they do will win the Trump supporters over to their side.

The Democratic Party is a boiling tub of shit right now. The centrist neo-liberals battling the anti-capitalist progressives. The identity politics types fighting with the Bernie Bros. There's no clear leader, no cohesive message, and no unity.

This is a perfect time for the Democrats to mount massive election counterattacks and win over a new generation of voters and seal up control of the federal government for decades to come.

But the party establishment is so woefully out of touch with anything outside Manhattan or the Beltway that I'm almost sure they will fuck this up.





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Matte
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 06:50 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Another interesting tactic would be to try to win over non-Trump republicans. That may not be entirely plausible, but there is a portion of republican voters that are vocally not for Trump being their party figurehead. If you can convince them that a center-left candidate (meaning a fresh dem candidate needs to be promoted) would be better for the country than the far right, insecure conspiracy theorist, dementia-riddled Trump...that's something. Maybe even convince them that stopping the republican evolution towards Trump worship by going the opposite way for a couple years would benefit their own party a few years down the line by, I don't know, making the party's mainstream appearance less hateful, stupid, and under investigation.





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Flash
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 08:44 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
There's probably a life span on how long you can; even rightly; beat the drum of Trump's a bad guy before it fades to noise, especially if that's your headline day after day without having anything else of meaning to say.

The Toronto Star lead the way with reporting on Rob Ford, the now deceased crack smoking cartoonish buffoon of a mayor for Toronto a few years back, but the coverage got to the point (and they still have occasionally dragged his name up most notably in Trump comparisons despite being dead for over a year now) where they appeared tainted by it, and probably made the man more endearing to his base because of his faults. They did a bang up job of breaking the story and reporting about his various antics, but it got to the point of looking like bias so much so that bigger stories got overshadowed... I still think the Star's reputation suffers a bit because of their coverage.

The Democrats need to stand out beyond just being the party that says "gotcha" to Trump day after day.

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OOMike
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 09:14 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl

Get your fucking shit together or at least figure out how to multitask re: both doing the above while being obstruction-y without having obstructionism be the sole thing you stand for and are doing.

Newsflash:
Trump is going to keep Trumping. It's what he does.
People are going to still stick with him and support him no matter what.
People are going to vent about the above two points ad nauseum. See: the top threads in this subforum.


I'm sure this is going to get torn apart by the left of centerer's here but before you follow your gut instinct and do that...ask yourself..'what if anything have we done to position ourselves to prevent what ccharger says..."


I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I'm arguably the most vocal commie pinko liberal on this site.

You hit the nail on the head with "Trump is going to keep Trumping". Nothing the Dems do will change that, and nothing they do will win the Trump supporters over to their side.

The Democratic Party is a boiling tub of shit right now. The centrist neo-liberals battling the anti-capitalist progressives. The identity politics types fighting with the Bernie Bros. There's no clear leader, no cohesive message, and no unity.

This is a perfect time for the Democrats to mount massive election counterattacks and win over a new generation of voters and seal up control of the federal government for decades to come.

But the party establishment is so woefully out of touch with anything outside Manhattan or the Beltway that I'm almost sure they will fuck this up.



I also agree with most of what Tex said, except for the part about concentrating on the issues... that shit don't matter no more. Several of the GOP in the primaries tried that with Trump, but got nowhere. Hillary had several pages of issues on her website, but giving speeches on issues and solutions did not poll well, so she dropped it for simply standing and staring at the stupid shit Trump did and laughing about how could she possibly lose. I doubt issues will make a comeback in 2020.

Second, getting the progressive left (Bernie et al) agree to support a centrist (Obama et al) will be the miracle the Dems need to win in 2020. Way too many to make this Dem comfortable, are of the ilk that if their candidate isn't nominated, they will either bolt to 3rd party, or stay home.

Third, looking at the polls now, compared to the election, there are not a lot of GOP that will walk away from Trump. I talked about this before, a lot of the Trump voters were supporting something the Dems won't offer (Tax cuts, pro-life, coal jobs, gay bashing, etc.).

We have 3 years to grow party unity out of the shit show that is the Democratic party and focus on those independents that either were never Hillary or stayed home in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.

ETA: Too many people Alabamians will rather put a pedophile in the Senate than a democrat. This is how fucked up this country has become, because that is not just in Alabama.

[Edited on 11-29-2017 by OOMike]





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janerd75
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 09:37 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flash

The Democrats need to stand out beyond just being the party that says "gotcha" to Trump day after day.


Just your humble neighborhood non-partisan shithead chiming in here, but maybe a lot of vocal big budget supporters from the Left could, like, y'know, stop grabbing everybody by their genitals? Republicans that do wrong get dogpiled for doing heinous shit, as they most certainly should.

Buuuuuut these notable Dems, including T-Pain Hisself, have been doing some awful naughty stuff over the years untouched professionally in Hollywood and in DC for decades. That is until now. Pretty sure people are noticing and have noticed our supposed moral betters doing pretty twisted shit while telling us little people how we should be living our lives. Mayhap that was part of the reason a lot of them were so vocal about Hillary getting in? That she would continue to provide the same cover for all this toxic nonsense?

Thank you for your time. Oh right, the Visual A.I.D.S. Enjoy!












Also, please feel free to discuss all the people and countries destroyed under Bush and Obama's watch compared to T-Dawg's current body count. And none of that bu-bu-but Bush/Cheney ZOMGIRAQ started it! We can discuss the "Arab Spring" and Libya and Pres-O-Dent Drone Strike and his illustrious Secretary of State at the time, if you'd like. Not the biggest Trump guy, but I am certainly entertained by his antics. He is what he is, but c'mon fellas, a little perspective would be nice. A lot of you are sounding like conservatives did with their, "Obama's a CommieMuslimInfilTRAITOR!!1!!1!" silliness.

Agayn, I thank you for your time.











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Paddlefoot
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posted on 11-29-2017 at 10:02 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Didn't think Matt Lauer was much of a liberal. The Dems are still enraged at him for the way he beat up on Clinton in interviews and the NBC debate but gave Trump a pass. What's the score at now for sex abusing big media scumbags who were fired/forced to quit anyway? NBC - one, FOX - too many to count?

Anyhoo, I still contend this has zero to do with actual politics and far more to do with what inevitably happens to too many men with too much wealth and power. It's a story as old as our shitty species. And it's not going to stop just because of a momentary trend of these guys being exposed and socially punished. It's everywhere and it'll be around as long as the execrable human race is.







We all know deep down what the only real solution for this class of (presumed) people is. It probably needs repeating, no matter how messy things got the last time it was put to good use, with a dozen punishment stations set up on Wall Street alone.







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Quentil
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 12:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
General thoughts in reply to a bunch of ideas scattered across half a dozen posts and the always lovely Janard efforts of Giffery:

First off, I too can attest to the fact that my Facebook is full of Trump supporters, who honestly don't give a crap about issues other than essentially 'Can we blow up brown people?" and "Can the white man get a break?" Those sorts of Trump supporters aren't going to ever change their minds. It is pointless to try at this point to take his core away from him.

Other Republicans are likely to vote Libertarian in protest if they can't bring themselves to vote for Trump, or others like him. They aren't going to vote for the Democrats in the vast majority of cases, outside of perhaps small pockets in mostly liberal states where it probably doesn't matter much anyhow. So that idea, while worth a bit of a Hail Mary token effort, won't likely pay any real dividends.

The key for the Democrats, as always, are the minority and women's votes coming early and often, and then late and often as well. A lot of districts are gerrymandered against the Democrats already, so they need to push numbers at the polls in whatever way they can.

As far as the split between the Democrat Party? As a Centrist Democrat who believes in fiscal responsibility and the idea of Globalization being the key to push a progressive worldwide agenda of American interests, I have no issue with giving the far left brothers and sisters of mine everything they want on the environment, drugs, universal health care, and a plethora of issues...So long as they are willing to keep in place a strong, robust military that still outspends everyone else, doesn't try to take away my ability to own a firearm assuming I go through the proper red tape, and which follows a generally Capitalist trade policy, with room for debate once we've taken control of the government. I mean, I don't think that's too much to ask.

That said, I do agree that the most important thing is solidarity whenever possible. Even if I think someone is a a far-left nutter, so long as our basic wants align in regards to a general push towards the left, we can hash out the speed and severity of said push once we've taken control of the government. No tantrum Green party votes which just defeat both our wants, and no sitting at home getting high and not voting at all. Getting high can wait until after the vote, dammit. Unity is really the key.

I think the issues are less important than they used to be, but still have some basic place in the campaigning and the message. The way things are these days, though, a large number of people don't really care about the details as much anymore. They want simple, 10 second Facebook-friendly, easily digestible, memes that explain the world to them. Sadly, this is the world we live in today in regards to information. And more sadly, the people who go into huge detail and the like tend to turn off people because they are "too smart" or whatever. People seem to distrust educated folks more these days, which is rather frustrating.

Oh, and someone tell Hillary Clinton to stay the fuck away. Far away. How is she even allowed at Democrat events still? Seriously, she's toxic to anything the Democrats try to do now just from being there.

[Edited on 11-30-2017 by Quentil]

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janerd75
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 01:00 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Ask and ye shall receive.



https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/06/what-does-tulsi-gabbard-believe





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CCharger
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 02:45 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
She can get stuffed. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/tulsi-gabbard-president-sanders-democratic-party

Quentil and I are a pretty good encapsulation of the divide in the Democratic Party (although I am actually a registered independent). My main focus as a progressive is the economy, specifically wealth and income inequality. Certianly, I also believe in gay rights, trans rights, abortion rights, and I condemn racism and bigotry and nationalism at every turn. But for me, a lot of those "identity politics" issue are moot unless we address the fact that wages for regular workers have stagnated for well over 30 years and pay for CEOs and other C-Suite executives have skyrocketed over that same period of time. I am a left-wing populist.

Quentil, as he pointed out in his post, believes in all the same social issues I do. In fact, I am pro-gun as he is. But he believes unfettered capitalism is the answer. I think it's the problem.

That essentially is the divide in the Democratic Party. Both wings believe in social rights and freedoms. But one is dedicated to continuing the economic philosophy and structure that led to the destruction of the middle class and persecution of the poor.

Until the establishment Dems take real, meaningful steps towards helping those left behind by free trade and globalization rather than throw out buzz words like "job training programs" or take real, meaningful steps towards helping the rural and urban poor rather than just increasing their welfare or take real, meaningful steps towards regulating and reigning in the banking and financial sectors, there will be a massive schism in the party.

Right now, establishment, centrist Dems are doing the whole *LALALALALA I DONT HEAR ANYTHING, EVERYTHING IS FINE" towards the grassroots progressives and worse, force a neoliberal agenda down everyone's throats. The economic policy of the last 40 years has failed. It's time for a paradigm shift. It's time for the common man to be the voice of the Democratic Party again, not the elites.





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williamssl
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 02:59 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This is the part where “Common Man” starts blasting and polka dot Dusty makes his ring entrance.





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Quentil
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 03:28 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger

Quentil, as he pointed out in his post, believes in all the same social issues I do. In fact, I am pro-gun as he is. But he believes unfettered capitalism is the answer. I think it's the problem.


I don't think Capitalism should be "unfettered." I fully support regulation, strong unions, and even some basic protectionist policies to keep a core of vital industries in the US. I just see free trade and the lowering of cultural and economic barriers as a fair trade off for the loss of low-paying, shitty jobs. The key here being that new jobs need to be created to replace those, and also be approachable to someone with a basic education. I'm a full supporter of paid sick, maternal and paternal leave and the like for workers. I fully embrace elements of socialism in protecting workers and even their jobs to some degree.

But yes, I view globalization as a potent and effective way to push American policy, and to make big wars less likely to happen. Anyhow...

quote:

That essentially is the divide in the Democratic Party. Both wings believe in social rights and freedoms. But one is dedicated to continuing the economic philosophy and structure that led to the destruction of the middle class and persecution of the poor.


The decline of the middle class is a result of a lot of factors, but I'll give you that Globalization is definitely one of them.

quote:


Until the establishment Dems take real, meaningful steps towards helping those left behind by free trade and globalization rather than throw out buzz words like "job training programs" or take real, meaningful steps towards helping the rural and urban poor rather than just increasing their welfare or take real, meaningful steps towards regulating and reigning in the banking and financial sectors, there will be a massive schism in the party.


I pretty much agree with you. I just think we can keep a strong military and fiscal responsibility while doing all of what you said. As you said eloquently earlier, we pretty much agree on social issues. What you are talking about here is a lot of social issues. Job creation beyond shitty retail jobs need to be sustained more for the middle class. I'm just not sure bringing back soot-filled factories with subsidized money that artificially inflates the cost of living for everyone is the way to go.

quote:

Right now, establishment, centrist Dems are doing the whole *LALALALALA I DONT HEAR ANYTHING, EVERYTHING IS FINE" towards the grassroots progressives and worse, force a neoliberal agenda down everyone's throats. The economic policy of the last 40 years has failed. It's time for a paradigm shift. It's time for the common man to be the voice of the Democratic Party again, not the elites.


I see that you're very fervent in your beliefs, and that sort of passion is great. I don't agree with a lot of your conclusions, but I don't have to to help produce a winning Democratic ticket. Because I agree with far more of your desires than not. And that's good enough.

I do think one big difference between the far-left and the Centrist Democrats is seen in foreign policy. the centrists want to maintain a strong American presence around the world, with the continuation of military alliances, encirclement in regards to countries like China, and so on.

The far-left seems to show a lot less interest in anything outside of their domestic agenda. And yeah, this is a general statement and likely not 100% correct. But in general, the far left doesn't want as large of an American footprint around the world as the Centrist Democrats do. Just an observation to throw out there for discussion.

Either way, we're both united in our desire to remove Republicans from power. And that's good enough. I can look at you like a left-wing safe space fruitcake and you can call me a hater of the poor and we can laugh it off and work together. Because the alternative just plain sucks.


[Edited on 11-30-2017 by Quentil]

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bopol
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 07:19 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Trump will have his fans, but he barely won. In fact, he had 3 million fewer votes, but it was 77K votes in MI, PA and WI that put him over the top because of the electoral college. That is incredibly little room for error.

And, in the meantime, what has happened? Virginia went from 66-34 in their lower house to 51-49 (what did it end up being in the end). In a heavily gerrymandered state.

So, do the Dems not show up again in 2020? I doubt it. It's negative energy, but they are energized. Does Trump gain more supporters? I doubt it. I don't know anyone who was against him who says, golly, I was wrong, he's pretty good. He's not getting any new supporters. Will the Democrats nominate someone that will lose 4% in polls the last weekend because the FBI director slings out an October surprise? Well, maybe, but I doubt it.

The Dems have their problems, but they are the only actual functioning party in the US right now. A year after taking over, the Republicans have proven they actually can't run things and I don't think they are winning new supporters. But long term, the country is in deep trouble. The divides are deep and I could honestly give a fuck for people that love Trump because he's a troll, which I wouldn't have felt that way in 2000 or 2008. And, I'm pretty sure they could give a fuck about me.





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Paddlefoot
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posted on 11-30-2017 at 07:12 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TownOfDalem
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
I still have a philosophical leaning with at least doing the most to cut as much government waste as possible, an alleged conservative ideal that they trumpet. Well, they trumpet it when conservatives aren't in power anyway.


I've never understood why people fall for the traditional conservative argument (lie) that they are there to cut government waste. It's an argument designed to trick people by conflating government waste with government spending. Those aren't the same thing. Getting rid of waste could easily be a bipartisan issue, but it isn't because it actually requires government spending (aka man hours) to identify waste. Conservatives love to point to the boogieman of poor usually minority people taking advantage of the system and wasting taxpayer money, but I've never seen them propose plans to eliminate loopholes or increase enforcement. The solution is always to just eliminate the program even if it helps millions of people.

To be clear, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. I know shit about Canadian politics, so it may not even fully translate. I'm also not going to pretend that people on the more left side are much better when it comes to policing waste. There is just nothing sexy about setting up agencies to identify and eliminate waste and enforce rules. It's one of those issue that politicians get more out of complaining about then they would out of fixing.


It's a bit different up here in Soviet Canuckistan. Instead of dogwhistling fiscal responsibility in order to screw over the blacks/poor, in Canada it gets used to push an austerity agenda. Our right wing is kinda/sorta different from the American variety. When in power Canadian conservatives really don't end up cutting much of anything most of the time, just a few tokens here and there so they can present themselves as Austerity Heroes (The Video Game). In reality the government that did end up doing the most cuts in spending, especially in healthcare and unemployment assistance, was the Liberal one from the early 1990's thru to about 2003. It caused a lot of damage all across the country but today's Liberals still use it today as their own "woo hoo, remember that time WE clobbered the deficit?!?!?" propaganda.

I guess I should have said more clearly that I'm against government waste as a philosophy, not as a deceptive plank in any party platform. And not to beat up on anyone either, more that if the government isn't doing the figurative equivalent of taking a few billion here and there and basically setting it on fire in the middle of the street through inefficient and ineffective wastage then it could be spent properly on assistance, debt reduction, or national defense. We push a nice-guy image here in Canada though so this will not happen. In our hearts, both Liberal and Conservative alike, the upper ranks of our political establishment is just as corrupt as any government anywhere else on the planet. Just because we hide the losses behind inefficient spending instead of obvious graft doesn't mean the same kind of players aren't greasing their way to a comfortable and well-connected lifestyle of their own.





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anglefan85
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posted on 12-1-2017 at 05:42 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bopol
Trump will have his fans, but he barely won. In fact, he had 3 million fewer votes, but it was 77K votes in MI, PA and WI that put him over the top because of the electoral college. That is incredibly little room for error.

And, in the meantime, what has happened? Virginia went from 66-34 in their lower house to 51-49 (what did it end up being in the end). In a heavily gerrymandered state.

So, do the Dems not show up again in 2020? I doubt it. It's negative energy, but they are energized. Does Trump gain more supporters? I doubt it. I don't know anyone who was against him who says, golly, I was wrong, he's pretty good. He's not getting any new supporters. Will the Democrats nominate someone that will lose 4% in polls the last weekend because the FBI director slings out an October surprise? Well, maybe, but I doubt it.

The Dems have their problems, but they are the only actual functioning party in the US right now. A year after taking over, the Republicans have proven they actually can't run things and I don't think they are winning new supporters. But long term, the country is in deep trouble. The divides are deep and I could honestly give a fuck for people that love Trump because he's a troll, which I wouldn't have felt that way in 2000 or 2008. And, I'm pretty sure they could give a fuck about me.


And that was with him going up against someone with plenty of shady dealings herself. With her out of the picture, they'd have a better shot. Not to say that its a given, though. We thought he didn't stand a chance and look what end up happening.

Trump may have his die-hard supporters still, but as you said, he's not gonna be gaining any new ones anytime soon, and he seems to be losing support by the day.





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OOMike
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posted on 12-13-2017 at 06:31 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Let me sum up my reaction to the election results in Alabama:

What the holy hell??!!??





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