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Author: Subject: 2017 Mass Shooting Thread Of Suck
BBMN
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 12:21 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flash
... but that automatic guns aren't such a good idea in the hands of private citizens.


Not trying to be an asshole here.... But I do have to say that barely anyone in the US has legal access to full auto guns. What is more than likely, is that he had a semi-auto rifle and illegally modified it to become full auto. Now of course if he didn't have access to a semi-auto, he wouldn't be able to convert it to a full-auto.

Also it's of note that it could've been even worse. He was spraying off standard 30 round magazines, but he could've used larger 40 round mags, or even a 75 round drum. Silver linings and all that. The use of high-capacity mags, and even fucking drums is outrageous. And this fucker was not in a "well regulated militia" either.

But your sentiment is not wrong.

Bonus - the GOP is currently trying to pass legislation that would decriminalize suppressors (aka silencers). If a shooter with a rifle can't be heard, than they become waaaaaay more dangerous. Just imagine this asshole with the benefit of his rifle barely making sounds or flashes.





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CCharger
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 12:50 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BBMN


Bonus - the GOP is currently trying to pass legislation that would decriminalize suppressors (aka silencers). If a shooter with a rifle can't be heard, than they become waaaaaay more dangerous. Just imagine this asshole with the benefit of his rifle barely making sounds or flashes.

Also, not trying to be an asshole, but the silencers wouldn't have made much of a difference.



Silencers don't make guns silent. They simply reduce the volume to non-dangerous levels. Even with a silencer those gun shots in Vegas would have been above 100 decibels. That's equivalent to an outboard motor on a boat, a military jet flying over at 1000 feet or standing next to a farm tractor.

What is more worrisome is that Trump repealed regulations that would have kept firearms out of the hands of the severely mentally ill.





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GodEatGod
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 01:39 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I don't even make exceptions for the sporting and personal protection shit anymore. Guns are a privilege, not a right, whatever a bunch of fucking 18th century rich guys decided to encode in our founding documents. You should have to receive significant training and certification, along with extensive background checks, just to get a fucking revolver, not even mentioning the kinds of weapons that can be converted to fully automatic. If you don't think you have what it takes to pass through such restrictions in order to go deer hunting four weekends a year every fall, then I don't know what to tell you, Cletus, but you'll just have to find a new fucking hobby.

Note: My opinion is meaningless and will never be implemented at all in this country because the NRA are fucking murder profiteers who spend a great deal of money funding the dominant political party in the country.





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CCharger
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 01:53 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The irony is that the louder the call for gun control, the more guns sales skyrocket.





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GodEatGod
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 02:02 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
The irony is that the louder the call for gun control, the more guns sales skyrocket.


That's not irony. That's a marketing strategy. It's the NRA's business model.





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the goon
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 07:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I was in the process of writing a snarky post about what happened in Las Vegas, but eh, I just can't be bothered anymore. At this point, mass shootings in America are something we're just going to have to live with, no different than hurricanes and tornadoes.
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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 10:21 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I don't think it's a healthy idea to just "normalize" terrorist shootings by saying they are something we need to get used to, and comparing them to natural disasters.

There are things that prevent shootings like this.

China is safe to walk around at all times of the day because of things like gun control. There have been terrorist attacks and isolated incidents involving stabbings, but the number of casualties is a fraction of what would happen if they all had guns.

Australia immediately banned gun ownership in homes in 1995/1996, and they haven't had a terrorist attack of that magnitude since.

Strict gun control works, whether gun lobbyists want to admit it or not. Facts are facts.

The old argument of "I can kill you with anything. Guns don't kill people. People kill people" is extremely shortsighted and insulting.

A pencil is made for writing. A baseball bat is made for hitting a ball. Regular, inanimate objects around the house were NOT made for killing.

Guns are made for killing. They serve no other purpose than to penetrate an enemy's exterior and rip apart it's interior, leading to internal bleeding or critical damage, resulting in paralysis and possible death. Sometimes bullets are made specifically to penetrate the defense of another armed gunman.

A skilled marksman with 10 rifles and plenty of ammunition maimed roughly 559 people the other night. He did it from the 32nd story. He wouldn't have been able to do such a thing with only a handgun.

Regular citizens don't need access to semi-automatic rifles, grenade launchers, or any other types of assault weapons. When a regular citizen claims they NEED an assault rifle, or that they NEED a silencer for the guns they own (if you don't think people say these things, try working in a blue-collar field such as landscaping and having your lunch break with a group of guys who mostly all own more than one gun), you've lost me. It really bothers me knowing that people like this make it their duty to buy a box of ammunition every time they go to Walmart, as well.

Why don't we just do what Australia does and force people to store their guns on a range for when they want to hunt or practice?

Gun ownership is a huge problem in America. Normalizing terrorist attacks (which is what this was) is the absolute last thing we should do.

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CCharger
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 01:12 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187


China is safe to walk around at all times of the day because of things like gun control.

China is also controlled by a paranoid, authoritarian government that censors media, stifles free speech, jails dissenters, and violates human rights.

I'd rather have guns than live in a country like that, but that's just me.





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OOMike
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 01:45 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187


China is safe to walk around at all times of the day because of things like gun control.

China is also controlled by a paranoid, authoritarian government that censors media, stifles free speech, jails dissenters, and violates human rights.

I'd rather have guns than live in a country like that, but that's just me.


I would rather live in almost every other developed country that has strict gun control, almost no mass shootings, and a non totalitarian government.

So Australia, Great Britain, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, France, Belgium, New Zealand, Japan, etc.

ETA: I have already had the argument on social media that cars kill more people, the terrorist in Vegas could have used a van instead if guns were not available, and my favorite, guns have a purpose of protection not killing.

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by OOMike]





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CCharger
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 03:35 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
So, what's the solution?

It's easy to say "gun control", but what does that mean? Does that mean full blown, Australian gun confiscation? Or does it mean bans on certain types of gun? Or does it mean tougher enforcement of current laws?

Banning guns is simply not feasible. The Second Amendment isn't going to be repealed. You can ban certain guns like assault rifles, but Columbine was carried out without the use of long guns.

Also, it's important to note that most gun deaths are caused by suicides, not mass or spree shootings. After that comes gun deaths from urban crime, mostly associated with gangs and drugs. Shootings like the Pulse nightclub and Las Vegas while more common here than in other countries is still exceedingly rare and accounts for a minuscule percentage of death by guns.

I'm not saying we should dismiss them or throw up our hands and keep the status quo, but I am saying that if we are going to talk about gun, gun deaths, and gun control we need to all be on the same page about what we mean.

When rural white folks hear "gun control" they see ATF agents kicking in their doors and taking their weapons. That's not the same thing African Americans or urban whites think.

Let's have informed and clear dialogue about this and not immediately jump to "BAN GUNS" because that's not practical or helpful either.

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by CCharger]





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Cherokee Jack
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 04:21 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
I don't think it's a healthy idea to just "normalize" terrorist shootings by saying they are something we need to get used to, and comparing them to natural disasters.

There are things that prevent shootings like this.

...

Strict gun control works, whether gun lobbyists want to admit it or not. Facts are facts.

...

Gun ownership is a huge problem in America. Normalizing terrorist attacks (which is what this was) is the absolute last thing we should do.
All true, but until either A) congress grows the spine to stand up to the NRA and all the single-issue voters who have spent the last decade nodding solemnly at every bit of “Obama’s coming for your guns!” bullshit, or B) people start voting these fuckers out of office, nothing will happen.

This isn’t a new or innovative take on the issue, but when a classroom of elementary school students was slaughtered several years back there was an outcry to do something. And even though it wouldn’t have done anything to prevent that incident, one thing that got pretty universal support was expanding background checks, I think it was polling at like 90% at one point. Congress shrugged, did nothing and paid no price for it.

Until one of the two above scenarios begins happening, we’re just going to remain in the same hellish cycle:

Mass shooting
Thoughts and prayers
Liberals and conservatives argue, nothing is actually accomplished
The NRA reminds everyone to buy more guns
A week passes and everyone goes about their lives until the next one





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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 05:57 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Pretty much, bro.

Well said.

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posted on 10-3-2017 at 05:57 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
An interesting aspect of gunowners is that they seem to honestly believe that their performance with guns is dependent on the goodness of their cause. For example, it doesn't seem to occur to them that, if they were faced with an evil armed assailant that they would not be better than that assailant with their own gun.

I saw a video of some guy who ran from the concert, armed himself and ran back towards the concert. While he is personally brave, it didn't seem to occur to him that a) his pistol didn't stand a chance against someone shooting from above with better weapons and b) he likely would distract first responders trained to deal with this and possibly get himself shot.

If the majority of gunowners would stop seeing that their weapon is a great equalizer when it's not (frankly, I think I could defeat many gunowners with a baseball bat upside the head before they could get off an accurate shot), then reform becomes possible. Until then, it is not and gunowners will continue their fantasy of being able to pull off the perfect headshot in a crowd saving many innocent lives.

And for the few that think that a gun will protect them from a tyrannical government, let me introduce the drone.





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salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 07:43 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
One of the performers at music festival has changed his mind about gun control, and wrote a good piece about why, and how he finally realized that "good guys with guns" doesn't mean a damn thing in situations like this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/10/02/i-cannot-express-how-wrong-i-was-country-guitarist-changes-mind-on-gun-contro l-after-vegas/?utm_term=.d6693ced1a1d

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posted on 10-3-2017 at 09:51 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
In his Netflix special Bare, Jim Jeffries has probably one of the most brilliant takes on the whole various I want my guns arguments... definitely worth a watch as it's quite brilliant and funny as hell.

Here's part one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

And yes- I meant semi-automatic weapons (no one's being an asshole, so no offense taken)... private citizens just don't need those kind of weapons period. I'd love a perfect world where there are no guns; but I get that there are responsible people out there who like to hunt, or whatever... you don't need something that can spit off dozens of bullets a second to bring down Bambi. Ditto for any argument about self-protection.

One aspect that I'd like to see change is the media's approach to these people that do these things... I'm not saying that you sweep it under the rug; but the instant infamy and publicity that most of these wacko's get is probably in part fuel for the next wacko down the line... do we need to know the guys name? Do we need to know what kind of training he had, or how he found out how to make the weapons full automatic (speaking general here)... I know the news isn't celebrating these losers, but they are in a way by making their story important and repeating their names ad nauseam.. if you are going to name them depicting them as the fuckwits that they are... I remember during the Charlie Hebdo shootings one of those ass clowns lost a shoe, ran back and got it, all the while the news is talking about how much training they had and how dangerous they were. It's like whatever next terrorist cell, or dip shit wacko wants to go off they don't need to plan stuff out anymore.. the news practically tells them what to do, where we are most vulnerable, and maybe not an outright X marks the spot on how to do it, but pretty close.

The story should be the victims-

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OOMike
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 09:55 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
So, what's the solution?

Let's have informed and clear dialogue about this and not immediately jump to "BAN GUNS" because that's not practical or helpful either.

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by CCharger]


Here are my suggestions:
1) update the ATF Center in West Virginia that tracks guns. A law from 1986(?) denies them the ability to computerize their records, so there are people in a building flipping through pages in boxes or on microfiche looking for the serial numbers on those guns in Vegas to see where they were bought from. Something in 2017 that should take about ten minutes for all the guns will take a few days.
2) Universal background checks/three day waiting period
3) Mental Illness/domestic violence/No Fly List history denies you the right to own a gun

Those are the ones almost everyone agrees on, now here are my stretch goals:

A) Mandatory gun safety classes for all first time buyers, that covers gun safety, storage, and cleaning first, then shooting
B) Ban Open carry of long guns
C) Ban all firearms from retail locations that serve alcohol
D) Mandatory registration, with the requirement of 24 hours to report lost/stolen weapon
E) Purchase limit of one firearm/30 days (I would like longer, but I will take what I can get)

ETA: No fly list

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by OOMike]





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BBMN
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posted on 10-3-2017 at 10:38 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the goon
I was in the process of writing a snarky post about what happened in Las Vegas, but eh, I just can't be bothered anymore. At this point, mass shootings in America are something we're just going to have to live with, no different than hurricanes and tornadoes.


My girl asked what was wrong as she was waking up that morning, to which I replied, "That thing that keeps happening in America happened again." She knew what I meant.


As for the suppressors, Ccharger, you're probably right that it might not have made a big difference, but even a small difference could mean 63 dead instead of 59. I guess rifles of that size could have a 20-25db drop. And there's apparently less muzzle flash, so perhaps this guy can get off one more magazine before he's spotted. At any rate, police do NOT want people to have these, and that's why. So naturally the GOP is all aboard the "let's make guns more lethal train, because of course we have a well regulated militia."





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posted on 10-3-2017 at 10:40 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OOMike
1) update the ATF Center in West Virginia that tracks guns. A law from 1986(?) denies them the ability to computerize their records, so there are people in a building flipping through pages in boxes or on microfiche looking for the serial numbers on those guns in Vegas to see where they were bought from. Something in 2017 that should take about ten minutes for all the guns will take a few days.



This elicits nothing but pure rage from me.





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posted on 10-3-2017 at 11:52 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GodEatGod
I don't even make exceptions for the sporting and personal protection shit anymore. Guns are a privilege, not a right, whatever a bunch of fucking 18th century rich guys decided to encode in our founding documents. You should have to receive significant training and certification, along with extensive background checks, just to get a fucking revolver, not even mentioning the kinds of weapons that can be converted to fully automatic. If you don't think you have what it takes to pass through such restrictions in order to go deer hunting four weekends a year every fall, then I don't know what to tell you, Cletus, but you'll just have to find a new fucking hobby.

Note: My opinion is meaningless and will never be implemented at all in this country because the NRA are fucking murder profiteers who spend a great deal of money funding the dominant political party in the country.
I'm not in your country, but if I was I would vote for people with your stance. I know it doesn't help anything, but you're not the crazy one as far as I can tell (for whatever -that's- worth).

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posted on 10-4-2017 at 03:09 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Let me add to OOMike's list that those owning guns carry insurance against the harm they can do to force that guns are stored properly. Your kid accidently shoots the neighbor kid because you kept the gun in a living room drawer, you are liable and have to carry enough insurance to cover the eventual lawsuit.

I think this will force gunowners to be more responsible (though many are) as far as storing their guns in safes and such. Furthermore, the liability of weapon that can kills 20-30 people easily may cause it to become prohibitively expensive to own, which wouldn't be the worst thing IMO.





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denverpunk
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posted on 10-4-2017 at 03:39 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
China is also controlled by a paranoid, authoritarian government that censors media, stifles free speech, jails dissenters, and violates human rights.


So are the United States.

[Edited on 10-4-2017 by denverpunk]

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CamstunPWG187
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posted on 10-4-2017 at 07:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Amen.

Hate on china all you want, but it’s done right by me and I’ve been able to live more comfortably here than I ever have by myself, with roommates, or with my family back home (past the age of 18, of course)

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posted on 10-4-2017 at 02:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The thing about Australia's gun laws is that they aren't even as strict as a lot of liberals and conservatives alike paint them to be. Essentially, in Australia, if you can show ID, sign a paper saying you will be decent with a gun and take responsibility for your gun, take a basic couple hour course in handling them correctly, tell the government where your gun is and that little kids won't have access to it, then you can keep and shoot your gun(s) 'til your heart is content. And yes, I realize this is what most people here are pushing for, including myself. Basic things like 'don't be a killer or crazy' and 'learn how to use and store your damn gun correctly.'

Liberals seem to gloat and brag about how Australia "banned guns" when they did no such thing. They just made the owners of said guns directly responsible for what happens with the guns. That weight of responsibility has stopped gun violence in Australia almost completely, despite the fact that plenty of Aussies still own guns and are highly supportive of gun ownership. And I feel it would do the same in the States, But "FREEDOM!!!" and millions and millions of dollars from the NRA and gun companies prevents it.

[Edited on 10-4-2017 by Quentil]

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OOMike
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posted on 10-4-2017 at 03:06 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
The thing about Australia's gun laws is that they aren't even as strict as a lot of liberals and conservatives alike paint them to be. Essentially, in Australia, if you can show ID, sign a paper saying you will be decent with a gun and take responsibility for your gun, take a basic couple hour course in handling them correctly, tell the government where your gun is and that little kids won't have access to it, then you can keep and shoot your gun(s) 'til your heart is content. And yes, I realize this is what most people here are pushing for, including myself. Basic things like 'don't be a killer or crazy' and 'learn how to use and store your damn gun correctly.'

Liberals seem to gloat and brag about how Australia "banned guns" when they did no such thing. They just made the owners of said guns directly responsible for what happens with the guns. That weight of responsibility has stopped gun violence in Australia almost completely, despite the fact that plenty of Aussies still own guns and are highly supportive of gun ownership. And I feel it would do the same in the States, But "FREEDOM!!!" and millions and millions of dollars from the NRA and gun companies prevents it.

[Edited on 10-4-2017 by Quentil]


I was under the impression that semi automatic rifles, shotguns, and pump action shotguns are banned and basically you can only own handguns (with some restrictions on magazines) and single or double barrel shotguns.





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posted on 10-4-2017 at 03:25 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OOMike

I was under the impression that semi automatic rifles, shotguns, and pump action shotguns are banned and basically you can only own handguns (with some restrictions on magazines) and single or double barrel shotguns.


It's restricted by ammo capacity. Shotguns are allowed for private ownership so long as they internally carry 5 rounds or less. I believe hunting rifles are limited to 10 rounds or less. At least from laws existing 3-4 years ago. The only justification you need to do to own one, in addition to the already-mentioned stuff, is to check a box that says "sports hunting" or "target shooting" when asked why you are buying the weapon. If the laws about this have changed since a few years ago, then I apologize. And make sure to report your weapon stolen if it's stolen. Because if you don't and it's later recovered at a crime scene, you're not going to enjoy the fact that you can be charged with a felony.

You can actually own fully automatic weapons and larger ammo-capacity weapons under a different classification. Usually just for private security and stuff, but one large exception is for "farmers", which I'm unsure as what the classifications are for that. But if you are a farmer in Australia, you can own just about any type of weapon it seems.

[Edited on 10-4-2017 by Quentil]

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