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Author: Subject: OOfficial Discussion Thread for: RAW (November 16, 2015)
OORick
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posted on 11-16-2015 at 11:20 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
OOfficial Discussion Thread for: RAW (November 16, 2015)

Tonight on RAW: it's the last live show before Sunday's Survivor Series, and the card still needs a lot of work, due to the sudden necessity of a World Title Tournament to cover for Seth Rollins' knee injury... a suitable undercard can't really be built up until we know exactly who's eliminated from said tournament, and freed up for other duty...

Tonight's show will sort that out, as all four quarterfinal matches will take place, supplying us with the semi-finals (and eventual finals) that will take place on Sunday's PPV... those four matches are:

  • Roman Reigns vs. Cesaro
  • Alberto del Rio (also US Champ) vs. Kalisto
  • Kevin Owens (also IC Champ) vs. Neville
  • Dean Ambrose vs. Dolph Ziggler


The internet has spoken, and is assuming this sets up for Reigns vs. ADR, and also, Owens vs. Ambrose... it certainly seems the most sensible, but sometimes, when things are THIS obvious, that's when WWE is smart enough to throw a curveball...

Then again: one of you out there still has my running commentary from the 2014 Royal Rumble in his .sig, and so my belief in WWE's "smarts" may be a bit misplaced.... still, it's just weird to me that WWE set this up in a way that amounts to running the same match twice...

Think about it: you've got Former Shield Guy Potentially in Line for Heel Turn against Established Fellow Babyface, Bully Heel against High Flying Little Man, Bully Heel against High Flying Little Man, and Former Shield Guy Potentially in Line for Heel Turn against Established Fellow Babyface... and if WWE does do the sensible/obvious thing, Bully Heel has to win both times, and Former Shield Guy has to win both times, which is an awful dearth of narrative range...

That said, I think we kicked around the two ideas that you can do to keep last week: (1) Have Ambrose get a relatively easy win over Ziggler, due to Ziggler's perpetually injured knee (it can be as simple as Breeze with a pre-match attack and Ambrose losing quickly as a result, or as dramatic as the Authority stepping in to hand Ambrose a bye to further tease the Authority trying to woe SOMEone over to their side), which would contrast nicely with Reigns being taken to the absolute limit by Cesaro in a 15+ minute match.... and (2) give Kalisto an upset win over ADR, so there's at least a tinch of uncertainty later on when Owens faces Neville (ADR already has an issue with Jack Swagger that's dormant as long as he's in the tourney, so him making the semis of a sidetracking; this is NOT the same as Owens vs. Ambrose, which was clearly already in the plans before they were bracketed this way)...

Beyond the three tourney match slated for Sunday, WWE's going with Undertaker and Kane vs. Two Random Wyatts... at least, that's their story for now... it makes no damned sense, and it turns a cool 4-on-4 Elimination Match into a lame tag team match with an almost certain DQ finish... I'd say there's a twist coming tonight that expands it to 4-on-4, but Taker himself isn't slated to appear tonight, so it'd have to be orchestrated by Kane or something... I mean, they're going all in on the "25 Years of Undertaker" thing, and Taker's debut happened as a Mystery Partner at the Survivor Series, 25 years ago... how stupid would they have to be to not see the obvious parallel staring them in the face for this year? I don't know exactly how you do it, without Taker on hand, but let's ditch this charade and get some Mystery Partners up here in this bitch, OK, WWE?

Charlotte vs. Paige is also slated, for the Women's Title... Becky Lynch and Nattie are having a significant secondary feud, which would either make for a pre-show match, or expanded into a Traditional Survivor Series Elimination Match, too...

The New Day are the tag champs, and pretty much guaranteed to be the most entertaining part of any show they're on.... but the tag division doesn't have a lot of clarity, with the Dudleys, Usos, and Lucha Dragons all sort of circling.... my read on that is that we're just biding our time until a big four-way TLC Match at the TLC PPV (our first real shot at recreating the glory days of E&C/Hardys/Dudleys), but the tag division will certainly still get a match at this month's PPV, too, right? Usos vs. New Day seems closest to being a going concern, but a big old Elimination Style Match could also be appropriate...

Once Ziggler is ousted, it's pretty clear that he and Tyler Breeze are on a collision course... depending on the ADR situation, he and Jack Swagger have a ready made issue, too... but once again, in deference to the Survivor Series' history, singles feuds could easily be morphed into a Traditional Elimination Match, too, depending on time management... the show might take one additional singles match (in addition to the three tourney matches), but in order to get a reasonable number of worthy mid-carders onto the line-up, I'm thinking you definitely do an old school 5-on-5 match with the guys (even if you don't do it for the women or the tag teams)... I ran through a couple possibilities last week, but we should have a much better idea of the available bodies after tonight's quarterfinals, even if we have to wait for SD for a final five-on-five to develop fully...

That is all. End communication.

The flOOr is yours, OO Nation. Don't wait till after 11pm to post, either. Pre-show previewing and prognosticating is certainly welcome. So discuss, debate, and rate!

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the goon
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 12:54 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OORick
Tonight's show will sort that out, as all four quarterfinal matches will take place, supplying us with the semi-finals (and eventual finals) that will take place on Sunday's PPV


My first thought was "why is the WWE squeezing all four quarterfinal matches into one night?" until I realized that Survivor Series is in fact this Sunday. Holy crap, that snuck up fast.

And all four of those matches have the potential to deliver, so color me mildly excited for tonight's show.





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lz4005
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 01:18 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Are those tiny druids being played by kids or NXT divas?
They all look 5 feet tall.

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Paddlefoot
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 01:34 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Did WWE just have a Spinal Tap Stonehenge moment? The set is supposed to be 18' tall, Vince, not 18".





Well you know, just because these young men have little education and live in squalor, it doesn't entitle them to commit antisocial behaviour and get away with it.

it's a child molesting robot

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TonyTH
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 01:37 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Neville and Owens just had a great match. It seemed like they crammed a lot in those last 2-3 minutes, but it worked, and Neville looked great. Even got a reverse hurricanrana in there as well.
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thestoryofmikeb
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 01:52 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I am 99% sure it won't happen, but there is a part of me hoping for a story with ziggler, fighting through the tournament injured, making it to the finals against Roman, and being the ultimate underdig story. Tie this back to one year ago, when Dolph was the hero of survivor series....

I see a lot of potential awesomeness, but I have little hope it happens. Just wishing I guess.





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Ortonmustdie
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 02:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
They acknowledged AJ Lee... interesting, or I'm reading too much into it.


(sigh) I miss her cute little ass.

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Count Zero
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 02:21 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Can we =please= test-drive a week of "Michael Cole replaced by a fishtank"?? That'd be awesome.
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jaymosley6
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 02:37 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Ambrose had me at "breakfast for dinner."
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Count Zero
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 02:56 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
hmmm.. Triple C? Corporate Champion Cesaro? That could be fun.

eta: but won't be. Lolromanwins.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by Count Zero]

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gobbledygooker
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:13 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thestoryofmikeb
I am 99% sure it won't happen, but there is a part of me hoping for a story with ziggler, fighting through the tournament injured, making it to the finals against Roman, and being the ultimate underdig story. Tie this back to one year ago, when Dolph was the hero of survivor series....

I see a lot of potential awesomeness, but I have little hope it happens. Just wishing I guess.


Oops.

As great as many of these matches have been, I can't help but think we're falling into a trap where the crowd doesn't respond until the final two minutes when dudes are busting out finishing moves.

For example - Zigler and Ambrose admirably started off with a nice sequence of holds and/or fighting for position and the crowd was fucking dead.

And Ownes/PAC had multiple kick-outs of finishers.

Many avenues would say otherwise, including NXT, but I don't want to watch a wrestling product where the matches are 30-minutes boredom, 2-minutes kicking out of each other's finisher, and a final pin.





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lz4005
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Cesaro's "roll with me" during the crossface was pretty bad.
Right into the mic.

ETA1: Man the rest of that match was good. They made me believe Cesaro had a shot. Even though my logical mind knew he didn't.

ETA 2: Ouch. I thought the botched rebound into backstabber was bad during the Kalisto/Alberto match. Then the accidental mask removal happened.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by lz4005]

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by lz4005]

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janerd75
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:22 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I wanted a Cesarholm vs. Roman Reignsey result.

ETA: Watching the Dudleys on RAW in 2015 is like watching Blazing Saddles on TBS at 2PM on a tube TV with the sound turned down.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by janerd75]





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Catch-As-Catch-Can: The Non-Specific Wrestling Thread

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Count Zero
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:33 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Hmm... HHHDR? Corporate Mexamerican Champion Del Rio could be..


Sorry, couldn't keep a straight face for that. LolRomanWins!

ETAquotestyle:
quote:
Originally posted by janerd75
ETA: Watching the Dudleys on RAW in 2015 is like watching Blazing Saddles on TBS at 2PM on a tube TV with the sound turned down.
[Edited on 11-17-2015 by janerd75]

I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a hell of a word-picture you just painted there.


ETA2: Electric Boogaloo: Main Event Diva Contract Signing? Is this a last-ditch appeal to Ronda? "Lookit! We'll make you the center of the show!" I'm kinda semi-serious, too. Get Miss Rousey now, while she's still somewhat valuable to them, and needing 'a break' from MMA to recover from a facemelting.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by Count Zero]

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the goon
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 04:44 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lz4005
Cesaro's "roll with me" during the crossface was pretty bad.
Right into the mic.


Yeah, that was really noticeable and I recall Cesaro getting caught communicating with Cena during a match not too long ago (it was one of the US Title Open Challenge matches on RAW), where he said something like "are you going for the ropes?" while having Cena in the crossface.

That blunder aside, really good match between Reigns/Cesaro and Owens/Neville was damn good too. And it looks like we're headed for the inevitable Reigns/Ambrose showdown at Survivor Series, which I'm fine with, but having Owens still in there gives at least a (probably very) minor chance that it'll be Reigns/Owens.

quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
Main Event Diva Contract Signing? Is this a last-ditch appeal to Ronda? "Lookit! We'll make you the center of the show!" I'm kinda semi-serious, too. Get Miss Rousey now, while she's still somewhat valuable to them, and needing 'a break' from MMA to recover from a facemelting.


You know, I kind of had that thought too. Though not so much that they did it to appeal to Ronda, but more to try and capitalize on all the Rousey/Holm hype by trotting out their women's (excuse me, Divas) champion and her challenger in the main event portion of the show; kind of like they were saying "see, we have women fighting each other too and their match this Sunday is totally personal!"





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anglefan85
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 05:58 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
That ending was one of the worst that I've seen in recent memory. Exploiting the death of Charlotte's brother Reid to get cheap heat? You stay classy there, WWE.

This isn't even a blood feud, its a throw-away Divas storyline. Unless the match consists of nothing but Charlotte beating the ever-loving fuck out of Paige for insulting her dead brother, then its for nothing.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by anglefan85]





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Oceanic815
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 07:39 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anglefan85
That ending was one of the worst that I've seen in recent memory. Exploiting the death of Charlotte's brother Reid to get cheap heat? You stay classy there, WWE.

This isn't even a blood feud, its a throw-away Divas storyline. Unless the match consists of nothing but Charlotte beating the ever-loving fuck out of Paige for insulting her dead brother, then its for nothing.

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by anglefan85]



Had no problem with the contract signing at all. Reid Flair grew up in the business, He would be OK with/understand it being used for storyline purposes IMO. Surprised someone on here is actually joining the twitiots with this opinion

Edit- And its not a "throwaway Divas storyline" (Interesting, not a throwawy storyline, but a throwaway DIVAS storyline) Its the first non-Bella involved Championship feud of the alleged Divas Revolution (tm) That could or should be very important, again IMO

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by Oceanic815]

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G. Jonah Jameson
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 12:15 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
"WWE doesn't do anything to make Divas feuds seem important."

"Ugh, why is WWE treating this Divas' feud like it's supposed to be important?"

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CCharger
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:06 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Whether Ric or Reid would be OK with it is irrelevant to me. As a wrestling fan, I found it cringe-worthy and distasteful.

I was really uncomfortable watching it.





"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

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nOOb
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 03:26 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by G. Jonah Jameson
"WWE doesn't do anything to make Divas feuds seem important."

"Ugh, why is WWE treating this Divas' feud like it's supposed to be important?"


The problem is that (I assume based on results I've read anyways, Fallout 4 trumps Raw as it is right now) they haven't treated it like its main event important. Had they put Diva matches at the top of the card for the buildup, and maybe do a mixed tag match in the process with this and the main event men's feud, then there's no problem with this. They haven't though. This is essentially ending the show with Big Show vs Miz.





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williamssl
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 04:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Big Show, like Paige, has nice boobs.





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lz4005
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 04:08 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
Whether Ric or Reid would be OK with it is irrelevant to me. As a wrestling fan, I found it cringe-worthy and distasteful.

I was really uncomfortable watching it.


I thought it was great. One of those heel-for-life moments for Paige.

Sort of like the time the Dudleys cut a promo on Axl Rotten's dead grandma when Axl missed a match to go to her funeral.

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anglefan85
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 04:30 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CCharger
Whether Ric or Reid would be OK with it is irrelevant to me. As a wrestling fan, I found it cringe-worthy and distasteful.

I was really uncomfortable watching it.


This is how it came across to me. I like Paige and Charlotte, but I've never been a fan of actions that generate cheap heat out of real-life tragedy. I hated it when Orton brought it up to Rey that Eddie was in Hell, and I hated this. It just reeks of desperation.

I know its a show, but it also hit me personally since some buddies of mine used to be drug addicts like Reid, but they were some of the lucky ones.

And as far as the whole" Divas feud not being important" thing is concerned, I've got Bayley/Sasha as my leading Feud of the Year and Match of the Year candidates. The women can work just fine, we're just not given much of a reason to care in this situation at this time, at least in my opinion.

EDIT: Even if Ric and Charlotte were okay with it, his mom sure as hell wasn't.

https://twitter.com/EFliehr/status/666499681137131521

[Edited on 11-17-2015 by anglefan85]





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williamssl
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 06:27 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the goon
My first thought was "why is the WWE squeezing all four quarterfinal matches into one night?" until I realized that Survivor Series is in fact this Sunday. Holy crap, that snuck up fast.



Color me disappointed on the overall build to Survivor Series. It's < 1 week away, and we (still) have tournament (3 matches), UT/Wyatts, and Divas title. 5 total matches on the card.

Yes I get that the Rollins situation threw things for a loop and forced a lot of last minute changes. And people's participation in the tournament might have delayed matches being set because up until them losing, they were already potentially in a match.

But really...

The tag titles. If it's returning Usos....set it. If it's going to be a 4 way....set it. Hell - set 3 teams and call out that Lucha Dragons will be #4 if Kalisto loses else it's __________.

Fuck ....set up traditional survivor series matches with some participants TBD.

We're going to get a bunch of stuff thrown on the card in the final days here, most of it probably coming on Smackdown, which when televised is 3 days away from the actual PPV. Hell - give us an NXT surivivor series style match.

Yeah there's the "big time feel" to it with the tournament and all the "25 years of UT" hype to it.
But to be this close to the event...and still have LOTS of room on the card....for what is one of the big 4 events and for awhile was #2....just seems off.





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CCharger
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posted on 11-17-2015 at 06:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
They probably need the time for a HHH promo to open the show.

Seriously though, maybe they add one match, but it would be nice to just have those 5 matches but actually give them lots of time to, you know...wrestle.





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