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Poll: Finals: Paul Heyman vs. Bobby Heenan
Paul Heyman 22 (0%) -»
Bobby Heenan 55 (0%) -»
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Author: Subject: Finals: Paul Heyman vs. Bobby Heenan
Matte
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 02:00 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Finals: Paul Heyman vs. Bobby Heenan

Paul Heyman





Bobby Heenan







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Slade
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 04:18 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This one is an easy for the Brain. There are a many reasons why I believe he was a better manager than Paul Heyman. I don't want to take up a lot of my time writing them all up, so I'll just mention this one point for why I'm voting for Bobby Heenan and not Paul Heyman: I cannot think of a single wrestler who did not benefit from being a member of the Heenan Family, but I can think of more than one wrestler who did not benefit from being a Paul Heyman Guy.

Some might point out that the Red Rooster was a member of the Heenan Family, however he was never more relevant than when he was a member of the Family and eventually made his babyface turn. Heenan put him over, but after that feud ended and he was on his own, his shitty gimmick truly did him in. Meanwhile, you can look at two recent examples, in Ryback and Cesaro, of guys who were getting over just fine on their own and became Paul Heyman Guys, no doubt for the purpose of taking them to the next level. However, rather than making it to the next level, their progress was stalled and both guys actually ended up falling further down the card by the time their association with Heyman had ended.

I don't believe that the Ultimate Manager of professional wrestling should be one that has left talent in a worse position than he found them. How much blame you want to attribute to the manager himself versus bookers and writers is something that surely could be debated, but the idea of the Ultimate Manager is that he advances the careers of everyone he has managed. Bobby "The Brain" Heenan did that better than anybody, even managing to temporarily get over a talent that the bookers saddled with a gimmick that was doomed to fail.

Edited to fix spelling and grammar mistakes.

[Edited on 8-11-2015 by Slade]





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Paddlefoot
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 04:36 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I voted for Bobby but one thing about what you said has to be kept in mind. When Bobby was on top during the Cartoon Era he wasn't hamstrung by the dumbass scripting that Heyman was screwed over by in his first years with WWE. Vince of the 1980's was noticeably less insane and interfering than the Vince of the 2000's is. Bobby, for example, never had to deal with having his reputation deliberately crushed by the WWECW December To Dismember PPV debacle that Vince did to Heyman. Eliminate the tendency the Vince of the current era has on stopping pushes the way he did with Cesaro and Ryback as Heyman Guys, and let the storyline play itself through, and both those guys could be significantly farther ahead than they are right now. Ryback's probably gonna be mid-card forever and the only reason Cesaro is suddenly in the spotlight is because John Cena stepped into the decision making process and demanded to boost him up out of the jobber ranks.





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gobbledygooker
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 04:39 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Easy vote for the Brain for me. He's my favorite of all-time and the greatest of all-time. That said, not gonna be mad if Heyman pulls it out. You really can't lose with either choice.

And I know I've mentioned it elsewhere on here (and it has no bearing on this competition) but watching old Primetime episodes on the network, it's goddamn amazing how perfect he and Gorilla were together. Not to mention legit hilarious. Their schtick holds up incredibly well 30 years later.





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merc
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 04:48 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gobbledygooker
And I know I've mentioned it elsewhere on here (and it has no bearing on this competition) but watching old Primetime episodes on the network, it's goddamn amazing how perfect he and Gorilla were together. Not to mention legit hilarious. Their schtick holds up incredibly well 30 years later.


I think you underestimate how compelling his time as color man influences thinking. Give Heenan the manager a mic and consider how he puts people in seats (or compels PPV buys) or network subscriptions. HE DOESNT.

Watch a Heyman promo and consider the impact.

This finals vote all comes down to what "ultimate" means in sports entertainment. For me, it's who helps put money in the coffers. It's Heyman time

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Slade
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 04:59 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Merc, I think Heenan's time as a commentator is a wash when you also consider Heyman's time as a commentator of RAW, promoter of ECW and writer of Smackdown. All of those things no doubt influence thinking just as much as Heenan's commentary does.

All I can do is tell you that I did my best not to consider all of those other things. I believe that Heenan was a superior manager to Heyman. However, I would have to give Heyman the edge for overall impact on the industry due to his other roles, which were more significant than Heenan's fantastic commentary. If you grade them on their many hats, Heyman wins. However, when you grade them solely on their managerial hats, Heenan wins.





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janerd75
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 05:18 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gobbledygooker
Easy vote for the Brain for me. He's my favorite of all-time and the greatest of all-time. That said, not gonna be mad if Heyman pulls it out. You really can't lose with either choice.

And I know I've mentioned it elsewhere on here (and it has no bearing on this competition) but watching old Primetime episodes on the network, it's goddamn amazing how perfect he and Gorilla were together. Not to mention legit hilarious. Their schtick holds up incredibly well 30 years later.


Ain't that the truth.

No Heenan, no Heyman. Booby FTW.


WWF Wrestlemania III - Bobby Heenan Interview by Bluthor


Bobby "The Brain" Heenan promo 1 by LakiaShanks







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williamssl
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 05:49 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Voted for Bobby. I started watching wrestling in 1985. Bobby was "the manager" then and through many of the years that followed.

Also, he had his own show after Raw for a bit. I enjoyed that show. It probably had a lot to do with the beers I drank watching Raw leading up to it. But I enjoyed that show.



[Edited on 8-11-2015 by williamssl]





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Katie Vick killer
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posted on 8-11-2015 at 11:52 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Bobby is 70 years old and he's still got it. 1:20 he manages a Matilda anecdote.



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williamssl
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posted on 8-13-2015 at 12:39 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I voted for Heenan....but surprised this is a 2:1 blowout in his favor.





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bigfatgoalie
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posted on 8-13-2015 at 12:56 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Based on previous voting...I'm not surprised.

A lot of people seem to think that Heyman hasn't be a manager for very long, or that his time as an announcer / figure head is why people love him. Which oddly applies just as much to Heenan.

That being said...the guy managing against Hogan at the peak of Hulkamania is a fine choice. Maybe not so much by the time Brock's 3 year extension is over. But for now...it is what it is.

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posted on 8-13-2015 at 01:56 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Holy shit, I must be out of the loop because that video clip that Katie Vick killer posted of Bobby Heenan was pretty shocking. I had no idea the poor guy was in that bad of shape and he's pretty much unrecognizable these days. Sad to see, but also glad that he's able to still make appearances like that.

Back on topic: I had kind of figured I was going to be voting for Paul Heyman in the finals of the tournament. But once I started reading everyone's posts on why they voted for Heenan, and I started to think about what it was like growing up in the 80's and having "The Weasel" on my TV every week, I decided to go with Bobby Heenan. As great as Paul Heyman is (hell, Brock/Paul is probably my favorite wrestler/manager duo of all time), Heenan is just kind of the manager of all managers to me.





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posted on 8-13-2015 at 02:06 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I suspected that Bobby would win in the end but given the intense popularity of Heyman I'm shocked this vote has turned into such a landslide for Heenan.





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GodEatGod
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posted on 8-13-2015 at 04:16 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I think it largely stems from the majority of us having come into our fandom as kids on Rock 'n' Wrestling era WWF. That, to me, is the heyday of managers being relevant in my fandom and, among those managers, none cast a larger shadow or represented pure heeldom like Bobby the Brain. If I think of 'wrestling manager', Bobby's image is the one that springs into my mind - he's the template. Whether that's historically fair or unfair, I couldn't say, but it's certainly the impression that thirty years of fandom have put into my mind.

To my kid mind, more than Savage, more than Andre, more than King Kong Bundy, the number one heel in the WWF was the Brain. He was behind Andre and Bundy and Rick Rude and Mr. Perfect and, later, Ric Flair (who I didn't know because we didn't really get NWA where I lived until it became WCW later). They were all heinous, but they were just tools in the Brain's schemes to destroy Hogan and Warrior and Hacksaw and all the other heroes. The heels were just his henchman, as far as I was concerned. And nothing made my Dad happier than seeing the Brain get thrown into the ring and roughed up - I remember Warrior getting a hold of him and my Dad laughing his ass off to see the Weasel get some comeuppance.

I love the Dangerous Alliance stuff, but I didn't see it until later, as an adult fan, so it doesn't have the same primal value to me. Heyman is easily the greatest manager since Heenan and I wouldn't have been mad in the least if he'd won instead. Heyman might even have better skills and, thrown into the same pond as Bobby, could've thrived. But Bobby was, for me, just the greatest and I don't think you'll ever really convince me, in my heart, to believe otherwise.





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posted on 8-15-2015 at 07:06 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I think Heyman is just as good as and just as important as Heenan in every way. In some aspects, Heyman is even better (but in other aspects, Heenan is better). Their respective rosters are super-impressive with equal parts big name they got attached to or new guys to the company to give the rub to. Both were pretty influential in their respective wrestlers' storylines.

Heyman had Brock, Punk, Angle, Austin, Show, Rude, the OG Midnight Express, Arn and Eaton.

Heenan had Flair, Perfect, Bockwinkel, Studd, Andre, Rude, The Blackjacks, Arn and Tully.

You want to say Heyman did nothing for Axel, Ryback, and Cesaro? Heenan had Barbarian and Terry Taylor at their worst and a constantly floundering Hercules.

I'm well aware of how long Heyman's been managing and I think most people here are too. I do think he and Heenan are the two very best of all time and could go either way with this. Not an easy decision.

And with that, I voted Heenan.

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Big Bank Hank
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posted on 8-16-2015 at 09:23 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GodEatGod
I think it largely stems from the majority of us having come into our fandom as kids on Rock 'n' Wrestling era WWF. That, to me, is the heyday of managers being relevant in my fandom and, among those managers, none cast a larger shadow or represented pure heeldom like Bobby the Brain. If I think of 'wrestling manager', Bobby's image is the one that springs into my mind - he's the template. Whether that's historically fair or unfair, I couldn't say, but it's certainly the impression that thirty years of fandom have put into my mind.

To my kid mind, more than Savage, more than Andre, more than King Kong Bundy, the number one heel in the WWF was the Brain. He was behind Andre and Bundy and Rick Rude and Mr. Perfect and, later, Ric Flair (who I didn't know because we didn't really get NWA where I lived until it became WCW later). They were all heinous, but they were just tools in the Brain's schemes to destroy Hogan and Warrior and Hacksaw and all the other heroes. The heels were just his henchman, as far as I was concerned. And nothing made my Dad happier than seeing the Brain get thrown into the ring and roughed up - I remember Warrior getting a hold of him and my Dad laughing his ass off to see the Weasel get some comeuppance.

I love the Dangerous Alliance stuff, but I didn't see it until later, as an adult fan, so it doesn't have the same primal value to me. Heyman is easily the greatest manager since Heenan and I wouldn't have been mad in the least if he'd won instead. Heyman might even have better skills and, thrown into the same pond as Bobby, could've thrived. But Bobby was, for me, just the greatest and I don't think you'll ever really convince me, in my heart, to believe otherwise.


You said it perfectly here brother. I'll just add this: I think Heyman comes in second even without his run with Punk and Brock, but without those runs, he's not in the conversation with Heenan as the greatest ever. That said, did Punk and Brock NEED Heyman to get as over as they were? I say no. Did Andre NEED Heenan? No. But the feud did in order to draw 90K fans into the Silverdome. Heenan talked a lot of those asses into those seats. Did Flair NEED Heenan to get over in the WWF? No, he would have done so on his down, but the association with Heenan was what allowed him to get over so immediately with fans who by and large knew him by name only. Like a few others have said, I understand the argument for Heyman and wouldn't mind him winning, but these fine distinctions I mentioned are what I think separate Heenan from Heyman as the greatest of all time.

And to all those who said Heyman was going to walk away with this one... Take THAT ya buncha ham & eggers!





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posted on 8-22-2015 at 06:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
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