The Online Onslaught Forums


By contributing to Online Onslaught, you'll help make sure we're around for years to come. Toss us as little as a few bucks, or as much as your generosity allows. Thanks!

Last active: Never Not logged in [Login ]

Printable Version |
Subscribe | Add to Favorites
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: A Future Draft Proposal: Salary Cap Draft [Feedback requested]
Slade
The Immortal One






Posts 4039
Registered 11-10-2002
Location Dusseldorf, Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: 423-GET-FAME

posted on 1-11-2018 at 01:54 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
This is a bit of a long read, but please bear with me because I think itís worthy of discussion/consideration.

I read Ecoís salary cap draft proposal, as well as the responses to it, a few days ago. I was intrigued by his idea of having a salary cap as a way of trying something new with the draft. However, Iím not convinced that his idea of putting together a list of wrestlers with their salaries would really shake things up all that much, and hereís why:

After participating in so many of these things over the last several years, one canít help noticing that there isnít a great deal of variation for when wrestlers are chosen in the first 20 rounds. There are occasional exceptions like when a wrestlerís stock rises precipitously in the time between drafts, or when one or more draft strategies breaks with normal drafting patterns (like having two draft participants drafting women well before when most people start thinking about drafting them). And there is a bit more variability in rounds 15-20 than in the earlier ones, but it isnít hard to predict which wrestlers will get chosen in those rounds. Consequently, working out the salaries of each wrestler based on their average draft position probably wonít lead to too many surprises, which in turn probably wonít lead to much of a difference in how we chose to draft talent. The only way I see it changing things up is if the salary cap were set at a figure much lower than what one would need to get one wrestler usually taken in the first round, then one wrestler usually taken in the second round, and so on and so forth.

Reading further in the thread, I saw Fifthís idea of incorporating the element of an auction into the salary cap draft and was equally intrigued by it. While I liked this idea, I didnít like the idea of submitting an entire roster all at once as I think going through the established drafting process is half the fun of doing these things, and so I think submitting your roster all at once would effectively zap a lot of the fun out of it. However, I thought the idea of having an auction might be the key to really shaking things up, so I decided to chew on it for a few days to see if I could find a way to make it work without effectively getting rid of the drafting process, making it unbearably long, or requiring everyone to be in an instant messaging room for an entire day while we auctioned off 400+ wrestlers (none of which are good ideas).

-----

Iíve come up with an idea for a salary cap draft incorporating the element of a blind draft that is different enough from our regular drafts to shake things up while at the same time retaining the fun of going through the process of drafting wrestlers one round at a time. Hereís my proposal:

For this draft, we will institute a salary cap set at $400. I have chosen this number with the intention of hopefully simplifying things for everyone. I came up with it by imagining that the average salary per roster spot would be $10 (times 40 wrestlers equals $400). I think using nice rounded numbers and keeping the dollar figures small will help everyone to better conceptualize what constitutes high and low salary figures (auction bids).

Using a salary cap, I think it is necessary that we also have a rule in which all 40 roster spots much be filled. How you choose to spend money on each roster spot is up to you, but you must find a way to pay everyone. As an extreme example, this means that if you want to sign Daniel Bryan really bad, you can place a top bid of $361 to get him and then fill your other 39 spots at $1 a piece. The point of this example is that you must at least have enough money on hand to pay the minimum salary of $1. I canít say that I know how many bargains will be out there at that price, but that will be for all of us to find out as we go along.

The draft process itself will be done as follows: We will conduct 40 blind auctions Ė one round per day (approxiamately every 24 hours). What we would do is use the results from the last draft to determine the slate of wrestlers that we are bidding on every day and then place our bids on them. My hypothetical round one auction card might look like this:

Round 1
01. Ric Flair = $4
02. AJ Styles = $5
03. Shawn Michaels = $5
04. AJ Lee = $2
05. Eddie Guerrero = $0
06. Finn Balor = $0
07. Daniel Bryan = $7
08. Edge = $3
09. CM Punk = $3
10. Kurt Angle = $4
11. The Rock = $1
12. Steve Austin = $5
* I used dollar amounts below the average salary figure to avoid suggesting what I think actual opening round bids would look like. *

Whoever submits the highest bid wins the right to that wrestler. You would send your bids in via U2U message and once the deadline for submitting bids has passed, the results would be tabulated and then posted in the draft thread. Whoever submits the highest bid has effectively signed that wrestler to a contract. Should there be a tie for the highest bid, that wrestler would remain unsigned and get added to the next dayís auction list. In the following example, I assume we have the same twelve participants from the last draft. The posted results for day one might look like this:

Round 1
01. EcoMac signs Ric Flair for $6
02. Niles signs AJ Styles for $8
03. PsychoFish signs Shawn Michaels for $7
04. DevSop signs AJ Lee for $4
05. Niles signs Eddie Guerrero for $7
06. TexShark signs Finn Balor for $5
07. Matte, Slade and First have made matching offers to Daniel Bryan for $7
08. Mayhem signs Edge for $5
09. Mayhem signs CM Punk for $6
10. Sportsguy and Matte have made matching offers to Kurt Angle for $6
11. Leo signs The Rock for $5
12. Niles signs Steve Austin for $8

In this hypothetical draft, the round one results reveal that Niles went big and got three top talents right off the bat, and Mayhem filled two roster spots in the first round. Dalemís name is nowhere to be found, indicating that he was too conservative with his bids. In addition to him, Matte, Slade, First, and Sportsguy failed to sign any talent in the first round. Plus, there were ties for Daniel Bryan and Kurt Angle, meaning theyíre still on the board. Here, we could have a rule in which only those who tied for the highest bid may place bids on them in the next round or leave it open to everyone to make bids on them (I have no preference either way Ė what about you?). In either case, bids for those wrestlers would have to be higher than the bids placed in the first round, so if I am uncomfortable spending more than $7 on Daniel Bryan, during round two I would submit a bid of $0 indicating that Iím out on him.

We would go on like this until weíve completed all 40 rounds, 40 days later. If 40 days seems too long, I see no harm in doubling up on rounds at the half-way point. So after the first 20 rounds, once the core of most rosters are in place, we could run two rounds per day, essentially doubling the size of the auction list. This would shave 10 days off the duration of the draft and put it in line with the amount of time it took to complete our last draft, which began on October 31st and ended on November 29th. Here, I wouldnít mind getting opinions on whether you prefer one round per day or one round per day for the first twenty rounds and then two rounds per day after that. Now that I think about it, I might prefer doubling up after round 20, but if the majority don't, that's okay.

While we would all be required to fill all 40 of our roster spots, we donít have to fill them by the end of the draft. Maybe you donít like or want a lot of the names found in the final few rounds, or you only have $3 left and canít outbid everyone for those wrestlers you would like to sign. At the end of the 40 rounds, we would do one final round in which you may spend whatever money you have left on wrestlers that werenít part of the 40-round blind auction (or were but went unsigned). This final round would also be done as a blind auction and talent would go to the highest bidder. For example, suppose more than one person wants to add Gordon Solie as a broadcaster. If I want him and canít bid more than $1 but PsychoFish also wants him and has more money in hand, maybe he bids $3 for him, in which case itís tough luck for me!

Trading would be permitted and might even happen much more often than in our usual drafts (or it may not Ė whoís to say!). The one thing to bear in mind is that when you are trading wrestlers, whatever they were originally signed for is the amount they will be paid no matter what. Therefore, if Niles is worried about his salary cap space after spending big bucks on three wrestlers, he might offer to trade one of them to free up some money. He could maybe negotiate a trade of Eddie Guerrero ($7) with Mayhem for Edge ($5), thus bringing back a wrestler and $2 in extra cap space to use in future rounds, or he could do a salary dump by unloading Guerrero and his $7 contract on Dalem, who had yet to sign anyone, but has the salary cap space and willingness to pick up that contract.

I think that pretty much sums up my draft format proposal. I welcome all feedback and questions regarding this proposal. I, for one, would be keen to give this idea a try. If lots of other people are too, then I would be more than happy to do the heavy-lifting to make it run smoothly, that is, to be the facilitator, collecting all the ballots and tabulating the auction results on a daily basis. And if my idea isnít well-received, Iíll have no hard feelings. But please do tell me if this is something youíd like to try out.

And, on one final note, sorry about the length. I wanted to make sure that my idea was fully detailed and to try to answer any questions before they needed to be asked.





"Love is making out with someone after you've blown a load on his/her face." - Dan Savage

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
TownOfDalem
Undisputibed Champion






Posts 2178
Registered 10-4-2007
Location Durham, NC
Member Is Offline

Mood: Waddle

posted on 1-11-2018 at 03:27 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I love this idea. I think the nailed the best way to do a auction without us all spending 8 hours in a chat room.

quote:
Originally posted by Slade
I think it is necessary that we also have a rule in which all 40 roster spots much be filled. How you choose to spend money on each roster spot is up to you, but you must find a way to pay everyone.


This rule is definitely vital to the draft working

quote:
Originally posted by Slade
Dalemís name is nowhere to be found, indicating that he was too conservative with his bids.


You mostly described how fantasy football drafts used to go for me.

quote:
Originally posted by Slade
he could do a salary dump by unloading Guerrero and his $7 contract on Dalem, who had yet to sign anyone, but has the salary cap space and willingness to pick up that contract.


Trust the process.





OO's only mammal penguin

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member   TownOfDalem 's Aim
niles81
Fella






Posts 470
Registered 1-16-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-11-2018 at 08:30 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I say let's do Slade's idea because it sounds fun and I like it.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
DevilSoprano
Pee Wee's Plaything






Posts 7428
Registered 11-16-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-12-2018 at 01:23 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
The one thing you have to be concerned about it with doing it on here is that there is a limit to the # of u2u's a person can have sent/received and not deleted. This would be more of an issue for Slade in that he'd have to make sure he deletes u2u's relatively quick but then there would be no way to go back and look at certain things. Just something to be aware of.
View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   DevilSoprano 's Aim   DevilSoprano 's Yahoo
Slade
The Immortal One






Posts 4039
Registered 11-10-2002
Location Dusseldorf, Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: 423-GET-FAME

posted on 1-12-2018 at 01:29 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Dalem, calling you out on your deficiencies as a fantasy football draft general manager was pure dumb luck on my part. And one needs a lot of dumb luck to draft the most talented roster in a blind auction draft. I hope that I haven't wasted all of mine here. I'm glad you like the basic idea that I've put forward.


Dev, thank you for bringing that up the point about preserving messages. That was something to which I didn't give much thought until you mentioned it. I just figured that keeping my inbox empty and deleting all of the incoming U2U messages after transfering the data on a Google Docs spreadsheet would be fine, but you have good reason to want to preserve the messages in case I accidentally plugged the wrong number into the spreadsheet (like you outbid everyone for Seth Rollins, but I mistakenly copied a low bid on someone else, and so I declare Dalem to be the winner with the highest bid). With that in mind, perhaps it would be better to have the daily bids come to me by e-mail.


Another thought I have is that I could share the Google Doc with those who would be interested in seeing the detailed bidding results. I would only post the winning bids in the draft thread because copying all the other numbers would be too much work. But I'm sure everyone would be interested in knowing how their bids compared to others. On the one hand, it would raise the level of difficulty not to be able to compare with others. On the other hand, I think it would give me an unfair advantage to have access to all of the data and be a participant in the draft. I think the draft would retain enough unpredictability in spite of having open access to the detailed daily bidding results. The way I see it, in order to be fair, if that data isn't shared, then my only role would be as "auction master," but I could participate if the data is made available to all. What do you guys think?





"Love is making out with someone after you've blown a load on his/her face." - Dan Savage

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
TownOfDalem
Undisputibed Champion






Posts 2178
Registered 10-4-2007
Location Durham, NC
Member Is Offline

Mood: Waddle

posted on 1-12-2018 at 04:19 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
An oowrestlingdraft@gmail address for collecting picks or something along those lines is a smart idea as is the google doc. I'm very excited by this idea, it seems like it would be a lot of fun and the level of uncertainty would be very interesting too.





OO's only mammal penguin

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member   TownOfDalem 's Aim
Ecosystem
The Rowdy One






Posts 2865
Registered 5-18-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-12-2018 at 04:28 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Iím 100% in and this solves the valuation problem really well. Slade, if youíre willing to draft master (and we should find a way for you to draft too), Iím happy to make updates to my old file and link a google doc with the list.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
TownOfDalem
Undisputibed Champion






Posts 2178
Registered 10-4-2007
Location Durham, NC
Member Is Offline

Mood: Waddle

posted on 1-12-2018 at 04:39 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ecosystem
and we should find a way for you to draft too


This is a good point. I'm sure we can figure something out like you cc' me or someone your picks, but mostly we just trust you.





OO's only mammal penguin

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member   TownOfDalem 's Aim
Leo
And I am AWESOME






Posts 228
Registered 11-9-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-14-2018 at 02:28 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'd be in. A lot of my questions got answered as I read along. I say double up after round 20. I would prefer doing the overall average list than just taking the last draft.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Leo
And I am AWESOME






Posts 228
Registered 11-9-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-14-2018 at 04:06 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Question, I have to draft 40 people, but do I have to use all 40 guys for each card? Because if I'm short at the end, I could draft some $1 guys, but never use them.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
First 9
The Rowdy One






Posts 2925
Registered 1-22-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: Doing the Emma Dance

posted on 1-14-2018 at 04:48 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Judging by the last draft, I think we could definently make Slade's idea work with 2 rounds per day. I also support the notionof bid ties for a wrestler leading to another round where only those who tied can bid on that wrestler.


quote:
Originally posted by Leo
Question, I have to draft 40 people, but do I have to use all 40 guys for each card?


Would be fun to see which non-wrestlers popped up as we try to hit quota. ''Fuck it, Kenny Omega is getting managed by Lou Albano!''

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
DevilSoprano
Pee Wee's Plaything






Posts 7428
Registered 11-16-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-14-2018 at 03:50 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I would think all 40 people would need to be noted on your card even if its in a battle royal. Because again, if you don't use all 40 theres nothing stopping anyone from overbidding on 12-16 guys and putting on killer 5-7 match cards and assuming that will get them through. I think we've gotta try and put a concentrated effort on voting for the entire card too instead of just a match or two.



PS. Can someone explain why there is a New Topic button right near Post Reply. I don't know how many times I've hit New Topic when trying to post a reply to a thread I'm in. Stupid configuration.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   DevilSoprano 's Aim   DevilSoprano 's Yahoo
Slade
The Immortal One






Posts 4039
Registered 11-10-2002
Location Dusseldorf, Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: 423-GET-FAME

posted on 1-15-2018 at 12:36 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Posted by Ecosystem
Iím 100% in and this solves the valuation problem really well. Slade, if youíre willing to draft master (and we should find a way for you to draft too), Iím happy to make updates to my old file and link a google doc with the list.


I'm glad you liked my proposal. I don't know what your old file looks like or whether it is needed. I was thinking of making a new google doc that would feature a ton of tables - a table per round, each on a new tab - with wrestlers names on one column, participants names in another, and fill in the tables with the auction bids. This is how I envision figuring out who would have the winning bids, and I think it would be easy for others to read the results.

quote:
Posted by Dalem
I'm sure we can figure something out like you cc' me or someone your picks, but mostly we just trust you.


I figured that at the start of every morning I would plug my bids into the table before opening any of the e-mails and hoping that people would trust that I'm grown up enough not to fudge my numbers after the fact, but if people demand more accountability, I would be happy to comply.

quote:
Posted by Leo
I would prefer doing the overall average list than just taking the last draft.


I just want to make sure we are clear:

If we go ahead with my blind auction idea, then we would be working off the results of the last draft as our daily auction lists. You would not be required to fill your roster with only those who were drafted in the last draft. You might want to add someone who wasn't drafted last time or you might be forced to depending on how the draft plays out, in which you would fill out your roster after the fact.

If we run with the overall average price list idea that was first presented by Eco, then we wouldn't hold a blind auction as the prices for talent would already be set and we would be drafting no differently than how we always do, but with a salary cap.

quote:
Posted by Leo
Question, I have to draft 40 people, but do I have to use all 40 guys for each card? Because if I'm short at the end, I could draft some $1 guys, but never use them.

Posted by DevSop
I would think all 40 people would need to be noted on your card even if its in a battle royal. Because again, if you don't use all 40 theres nothing stopping anyone from overbidding on 12-16 guys and putting on killer 5-7 match cards and assuming that will get them through. I think we've gotta try and put a concentrated effort on voting for the entire card too instead of just a match or two.


This is a valid concern, but I think that trying to cram 40-people onto a card would either require too many matches or too many big multi-person matches. And I comply agree with Dev about having half a card that is amazing and then booking a pile of trash in the undercard, but there's no way of controlling how people will vote in the end. I consider the entire card when I'm voting, and with that in mind, I consider whether cards are too long and over bloated, which is what I think would happen with 40-people on them, unless you book a battle royal on all of your cards (which would become old quickly).

Instead, I would suggest one of three possible draft rules related to roster construction: 1) having a 40-person draft in which all persons must appear on a round robin card at least once; or 2) reducing the numbers of rounds to 30 with a corresponding reduction in the salary cap to $300 and requiring that all 30 persons appear on the card; or 3) A 40-person draft, in which all persons must appear on the card, comprised of 30 wrestlers; 5 personalities for commentary, backstage interview and ring announcing duties; and five other individuals appearing as managers, valets, special guest referees, ring enforcers, live music performers, etc.





"Love is making out with someone after you've blown a load on his/her face." - Dan Savage

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Leo
And I am AWESOME






Posts 228
Registered 11-9-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-15-2018 at 01:48 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I think you misunderstand me. I didn't mean the average price list. I meant for the draft lists to be made up of the average of where everyone has gone in years past. I believe that is the list Eco is referring to as well to give you. The difference is that you would be working off a list that has everyone slotted based on an overall average of draft position based on years of drafting and not just one year where you get oddballs much higher than they should be, like AJ Lee in the first round.

As far as the number drafted go. I like keeping it at 40, but saying everyone needs to be used at least once in your first three cards.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Slade
The Immortal One






Posts 4039
Registered 11-10-2002
Location Dusseldorf, Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: 423-GET-FAME

posted on 1-15-2018 at 03:10 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
You're right, Leo. It wasn't clear to me what you meant. It is now. Thank you for clarifying it.

Eco's original post is six years old. He may have updated his list in the meantime, but if he hasn't then it would a lot of work to search through the history of 10+ drafts and figure out the average draft placement of each wrestler, even if it is just updating his previous lists. I'm happy to take on the daily task of sorting through auction bids, but I don't want to take on that task. If you or someone else wants to figure it out, feel free.

The possibility of adding hours upon hours of work to figure that out is the first reason I would prefer to work off the last draft. The second one is precisely for the reason you don't like it - I the added element of unpredictability that having a dozen women to have to consider choosing in the first 75 picks adds to draft.





"Love is making out with someone after you've blown a load on his/her face." - Dan Savage

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Leo
And I am AWESOME






Posts 228
Registered 11-9-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-15-2018 at 04:39 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I believe there is an updated list that Eco has.

Now that I've thought about the unpredictability factor of working off the last draft, I guess I like it a little bit better, because that means you don't necessarily have the overall top 10 guys going on one day and you have a few wild cards per day thrown in there, so it involves a little more strategy and planning out.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
TexShark300
The Rowdy One






Posts 2382
Registered 12-7-2005
Location West Texas
Member Is Offline

Mood: I Will Do Better

posted on 1-15-2018 at 10:53 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Just seeing this. I know for a fact Eco has a pretty recent list, we used it for the Booking challenge at Pun's House last year. ( http://natecorbitt.proboards.com/board/157/wrestling-rosters-booking-showdown ) Matte has one as well. I might still have them, I might not.

Sounds like an incredible idea that I have absolutely no way to realistically participate in. Monitoring a draft and making a pick here and there is one thing, submitting a new list every day and tracking my budget is more than I am capable of with my current life.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member This User Has MSN Messenger   TexShark300 's Yahoo
Ecosystem
The Rowdy One






Posts 2865
Registered 5-18-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-16-2018 at 03:14 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
So I do have a spreadsheet that's been updated with all but the last draft. I'm a little busy at work (and still working tonight), so it would probably take me a maximum of two days to get this updated to pump out the averages of every 2014-17 draft? (I could go earlier, but that gives us nine to work from.) When do we want to start?

(Also, I can post the Google Sheets link here or just send it to Slade, if it's more fun to have the list be a surprise.)





There doesn't have to be a "victim" here. There can just be two assholes.
-Lucky Lopez

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Slade
The Immortal One






Posts 4039
Registered 11-10-2002
Location Dusseldorf, Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: 423-GET-FAME

posted on 1-16-2018 at 08:01 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
As I understand it, some of you guys have a draft going right now at the Pun's House, so I suppose waiting until that has ended is the considerate thing to do. In any event, I figure we could start as early as February 1 and as late as February 25 or any time after April 9. That gap may seem weird but it is because I'll be on vacation in the south of France from March 26 to April 8 and so I could not nor would not want to guarantee that I could tabulate auction bid results at the time (any draft beginning after February 25 probably runs into my vacation). I don't mind preparing my cards before I go on vacation and I think I can find enough spare time here and there that I could vote on cards while I'm away, I just wouldn't be able to follow through on "auction master" tasks at that time.





"Love is making out with someone after you've blown a load on his/her face." - Dan Savage

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Leo
And I am AWESOME






Posts 228
Registered 11-9-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 1-16-2018 at 01:38 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
I'm running the women's fed draft on the Pun Boards. Drafting ending today. My estimate is that it will be all done by Feb. 2.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top


Powered by XMB 1.8 Partagium Final SP1
Developed By Aventure Media & The XMB Group
Processed in 0.1381600 seconds, 23 queries