The Online Onslaught Forums


By contributing to Online Onslaught, you'll help make sure we're around for years to come. Toss us as little as a few bucks, or as much as your generosity allows. Thanks!

Last active: Never Not logged in [Login ]

Printable Version |
Subscribe | Add to Favorites
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll
Author: Subject: The Flair/Hogan Paradox
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-8-2002 at 12:44 AM Edit Post
The Flair/Hogan Paradox

This topic came to me for a couple of reasons. First of all, there has been a lot debate surrounding the comparisons of certain wrestlers to other similar wrestlers done on this page lately (Angle/Benoit, Bautista/Brock). Second, in giving my picks for my least favorite wrestlers I was tempted to add a name to that list that could have gotten me some potentially negative feedback: Ric Flair.

In the end I didn't do it. I didn't think it was fair. As much as I've disliked almost every match that the Nature Boy has been in since his return to the WWE, he seems to have found his true role in the fed lately. I like the work he's done as a manager to HHH and Bautista. If you can't go out like Foley, then this is a great way to give "the rub" to the next generation (not that HHH is young by any means).

But otherwise, why shouldn't I put Flair on my list. He's so old now that he can no longer look pull have the moves he used to (Flair flip). Hell, even the figure four looks weak these days. Although he's in good shape for is age, he still looks like shit compared to the other workers. I mean, his boobs are bigger than Dawn Marie's. Also, what the hell is the point of having him beat guys like Jericho in PPV matches? Jericho doesn't need that kind of rub. Most of all, I see that a lot of people are putting Hogan down for many of the same reasons.

But there in lies the problem: What the hell is the difference? I'm not saying that I'm any better or more right than the rest of you. I recognize that I'm just as hypocritical as the next guy.

You see, I want Hogan to come back. I'm not saying that he should get the title or anything. Far from it, as that would be a mistake. But I thoroughly enjoyed Hulk's come back run this year, especially the matches he lost against Rock, Angle and Lesnar. But am I not being the biggest asshole hypocrite ever in saying this?

Now there are some of you out there that enjoy or despise both these guys equally. That's great, you can sleep easy at night. But, in my guesstimation, it would seem that far more of you are split more often than not for one legend or the other. Why? What is our problem as wrestling fans? Usaually we're fairly logical, so why are so many people so split on this topic? I mean even Rick, our shining beacon of tempered critique, seems to have a pro-Flair slant.

Any ideas? I'm really looking for any big tirades on who is the greatest wrestler of all time. That's already been done to death. In fact, I don't even know what kind of answer I expect. Are we all just mindless marks?

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Damien
Fella






Posts 255
Registered 10-1-2002
Location Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: GO FLAMES GO!

posted on 12-8-2002 at 01:01 AM Edit Post
Well,I'm not gonna answer,I'll just blabber=P,I was just reading about Master P and Silkk the Shockker in WcW in one of the other forums and I completley forgot about that,the whole No Limit Soldiers thing was pure comic genius.It was so horrifically bad that it was single handedly the funniest shit EVER in wrestling,especially Silkk's Bday,the CLASSIC wrestlcrap moment,lol.
Can we just turn this into the random thread?Cause what I just said has nothing to do with your post.





Please visit www.flamesgirls.com.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
2HoT
The Immortal One






Posts 4818
Registered 3-23-2002
Location Yermomsbox PA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Cock-sure

posted on 12-8-2002 at 04:54 AM Edit Post
ham shoe puddle twig...

hows that for random. it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

heres another randome thought for ya

vegans dont make very good eatin





Who wants soup?

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-8-2002 at 05:11 AM Edit Post
Is this a not so suttle form of criticism? Jeez, that's the last time I try to take myself seriously.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
2HoT
The Immortal One






Posts 4818
Registered 3-23-2002
Location Yermomsbox PA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Cock-sure

posted on 12-8-2002 at 05:40 AM Edit Post
no dude no criticizm intended at all. I thought your post was insightful and I agreed with it. The other stuff was just for fun. no burn, just fun. This place takes itself so seriously sometimes its nice to lighten up and cut loose once in a while in a way that isnt mean spirited

fun is fun





Who wants soup?

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-8-2002 at 11:51 AM Edit Post
I have something kind of on topic about Hogan and Flair that might interest you, Milky. Flair was hired back to the WWE one year ago, Hogan signed his contract in Feb. and finished off all that was required of him in August and could not come to terms for more service.

During Flair's run he has played 50% owner, who even went over Vince McMahon in a well-built up match for the Royal Rumble. He is then kind of jammed into the nWo angle and quickly removed from it as he gets into a I cannot spell 'feud' with the Undertaker. Undertakers more or less squashes him at Wrestlemania. The Brand-extension era then begins and because of Austin, Flair must turn heel and ruin all the face heat he had. Austin then leaves, and Vince decides to remove Flair from his owner duties and turn him face again -- hurting Flair even more. Flair then spends a few months as a lame duck face, getting a win here and there before having a losing streak after jobbing to Triple H. Old man Flair turns heel because Triple H is the man (oh lord) -- jobs to RVD and basically has become a manager. -- Flair has also had no personal videos made on him or his legacy. There is the Flair/Steamboat match that was put on a TRIPLE H -- DVD -- but otherwise Flair does all of that a$$-kissing for McMahon and gets no awards.

Hogan, on the other hand, returns to the WWE at No Way Out in the nWo. In spite, of Hogan and the boys getting only a few skits during the weeks going up to Wrestlemania -- every sketch they were on was some of the most enjoyable TV I have ever watched. The night they destroyed the Rock and Hogan got the monster pop (after trying to gain heel heat) really showed what the people wanted -- but it wasn't what Vince wanted. To prove that the fans were all for nWo domination, the night Hogan pinned the Rock with the leg drop on Raw -- the crowd loved it. Hogan, of course, ends up jobbing to Rock -- but it was after Hogan had Hulked Up from Rock's massive "Rock Bottom" finisher -- so it could be said it was the last time Hogan was booked as Hogan, in spite of losing. Hogan would turn face, go back to the red and yellow, and even get a token win for the World Title, which he would quickly lose to the man that helped him win it. Then to make it suck more, Hogan then jobbed to Kurt Angle by submission. Hogan submitting was too much to handle, as Hogan never had submitted in the yellow and red, ever -- but it was all about Vince McMahon's revenge. However, Hogan (like always) used excuses to explain his losses and he stayed over with the fans. Hogan would even job to Triple H, but Hogan had pinned Triple H in "1985 King Kong Bundy" fashion and thought he had won the match. He would then win two DQ matches with Angle and Jericho -- which hurt Hogan more than it helped the two "modern stars" from getting hurt. The fans, however, still loved him -- so they put him and Edge together in a tag team -- but Edge had to move on, so they quickly had to end that. Hogan then jobbed to Lesnar, had problems with Vince and in spite of fans wanting him back -- Hogan is gone. McMahon's revenge is complete. Yet, Hogan gets a massive DVD with some of his greatest matches put on the market after he jobbed to Lesnar and even got rights to publish a book, which hasn't done as good as Foley's book -- but still up there for the Hogan fans (#13 NYT bestseller list).

So Flair gets nothing, but hell as Hogan (although mistreated) gets some good benefits for his work. Why? Because Hogan doesn't need the money and Flair does? I mean if Hogan needed the money, he'd kiss Vince's ass ten times over and be back on TV like Jerry Lawler. Flair must have spent all his money on drugs or something, to take all the crap he has taken from McMahon, Bischoff, and others thru the years.

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Stormtrooper
The Great One






Posts 3635
Registered 1-5-2002
Location under glass ceiling
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 12-9-2002 at 06:21 AM Edit Post
Hogan was mistreated, what show were you watching?.

"Then to make it suck more, Hogan then jobbed to Kurt Angle by submission. Hogan submitting was too much to handle, as Hogan never had submitted in the yellow and red, ever"

All the more reason why he should now.

"but it was all about Vince McMahon's revenge"

No, I think it was about Hogan for once realising that he could be a professional and help elevate people around him rather than be an egotistical asshole like the rest of his career.





THE CHAMP

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member   Stormtrooper 's Yahoo
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-9-2002 at 01:27 PM Edit Post
"Hogan was mistreated, what show were you watching?"

Lets see, Hogan was booked as a fluke champion when wrestling/sports entertainment is about "suspending disbelief" when it comes to age. Hogan is a legend, and to see him have to put people over made me sick. Rock was okay to job to, but it was because Hogan was actually booked as a threat. Every other match he was in, you expected him to job with no suspense or effort. Sure, he got lucky at Backlash, thanks to an overbooked ending -- but it made Hogan look like a pussy.


"All the more reason why he should now."

Why? Because you all have been brainwashed into "old= not entertaining".

"No, I think it was about Hogan for once realising that he could be a professional and help elevate people around him rather than be an egotistical asshole like the rest of his career."

People expected to see the real Hogan in the WWF/E again, and instead they got a man that jobbed. That is why Hogan failed during his six month run.

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
salmonjunkie
Best There Is Was or Ever Will Be






Posts 12822
Registered 6-25-2002
Location Sunny Seattle, WA
Member Is Online

Mood: FICKLE!

posted on 12-9-2002 at 03:19 PM Edit Post
I don't think his run was a failure. He got mad pops during his run, and it made the fed some money with all those t-shirt sales. That's pretty much a success in my book.






View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   salmonjunkie 's Aim   salmonjunkie 's Yahoo
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-9-2002 at 04:44 PM Edit Post
When I say failure, I speak for what I suspect was in Vince McMahon's mind to stroke his ego.
View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-9-2002 at 10:58 PM Edit Post
Hogan got screwed? Bwah ha ha ha! Now that's funny. Hogan did just fine. He should be proud of his return to the WWE, and I think he probably is.

As I see it, after being screwed by Russo, Hogan was fairly depressed that the career of the greatest icon in wrestling history could be soiled by a hack writer. Then he comes back to the WWE and the fans go absolutely bonkers, more or less forcing Vince to put him back in the main-event title race. Hogan legacy is complete our last memories of him are now extremely positive. He wanted to ride out on top. He did. I don't think losing to Rock, Angle or Lesnar changed that.

Hogan's WWE run has done so much for his reputation it's incredible. Lots of smarks have absolved him for his sins in WCW. No one can say he a self-promoting glory hound quite as easilly anymore. He gave a huge rub to Edge in their tag stint together. And years from now, if Lesnar realizes his potential, he can look back and say that his match against Hogan was one of the big turning points in his career.

You see, to leave a legacy in wrestling doesn't mean you have to go out the champ. In recent times who has left a good legacy on sports entertainment? Austin? Nope. DDP? No.

The man who left on of the best legacies in the WWE is Mick Foley. Foley went out with a great run. He had two of his best matches in those last months. And he helped make HHH a monster heel champ. Foley was indirectly responsible for some of the WWE best ever box office.

Hogan can say the same in a lot of ways. He helped make Brock's career, and he gave Angle and Edge some really good rubs. He also had some of his best matches ever in those last days. Hogan/Rock, Hogan/Jericho and Hogan/Angle come to mind.

Do I want Hogan back. Yes, but not as champ. Hogan doesn't need the belt to be over. He never did. What are going to do, put the belt on the guy until he's 80, just because he's a legend. That's just bad for business. The torch needs to be passed, man! Create new stars. Don't you GET that!

You say that Hogan would be back if he needed the money. I see it this way: If Hogan felt he had something left to prove, we'd be watching him right now. But he doesn't. Hogan is happy now. He burned out; he didn't fade away.

Been smoking a little too much Bud there, Ellock?

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-10-2002 at 07:07 PM Edit Post
I'm not sure if this topic towards Milky deserves bandspace on the board here, but I think this is needed to be read by all.

"Hogan . . . should be proud of his return to the WWE, and I think he probably is."

Well after the deal with Russo, I think Hogan had to come back to national TV, just so he could go out with a better bang. That happened after Wrestlemania 18, and he should have ended it right there. I mean that match with Rock was the last time Hogan was looked at as a real threat, the rest of the time he was booked as an old man that needed the "young bucks" of today to help him. Hell, my father is over 50 and could beat my a$$ in a legit fight. What the youth of this country needs to understand that being handed something on a silver platter doesn't make you great. Hogan earned his spot, and at least the men he jobbed to (sans Triple H and maybe Brock) had earned the right in 2002 to have a victory over Hogan. I mean, Kurt Angle deserved the honor of beating Hogan, but the way their match was booked (comedy match, with Angle still wearing the toup) really hurt the match. I mean Hogan never taps, he is superhuman. Angle should have gotten the pin, and thats all I have to say about that.

"Hogan's WWE run has done so much for his reputation it's incredible. Lots of smarks have absolved him for his sins in WCW. No one can say he a self-promoting glory hound quite as easilly anymore."

Hogan was at his best when he was a self-promoting glory hound, and at his worst when forced to "put over the young bucks that no nothing of respect". Everybody expects to be handed the world on a silver platter. There are no "boundaries" anymore. Hogan "played ball" because he didn't want to be remembered as the guy Vince Russo screwed.

At least Hogan (except for the Lesnar and Rock jobs) had clever ways to explain the other jobs.

The Undertaker (Judgement Day 2002): Vince McMahon hit him with a chair, which could have set up one of the greatest I cannot spell 'feuds' in WWE history.

Triple H (Smackdown 6/02): Hogan actually pinned Triple H in 1985-King Kong Bundy fashion with Triple H slightly lifting his shoulder. Being it is 2002 and Triple H is the top draw (in the booker's bedroom), he jumps up and Pedigrees Hogan's ass into the canvas and wins.

Kurt Angle: Hogan grabbed the ropes, but they don't break the ropes for Hogan, so Hogan is forced to tap.

"To leave a legacy . . . doesn't mean you have to go out the champ."

Hogan was different. He made "Sports Entertainment". I wouldn't be a fan if it wasn't for Hogan. I mean if Muhammed Ali could beat Leon Spinks and then go off into the sunset, why not Hulk Hogan? Sure Ali came back and lost to Larry Holmes, but Hogan is the "god" of wrestling and no one "deserves" his torch.

"The man who left on of the best legacies in the WWE is Mick Foley."

What drugs are you smoking? Foley was made to look like a jobber fool by Triple H. You call that a way to go out. Foley should have won the title at Royal Rumble, and lost his career and title at No Way Out in the Cell match. Instead he gets to job to Triple H twice, but hey "he helped make HHH a monster heel champ", so who cares if Foley's legacy is remembered as being one of Triple H's first political victims.

Does anybody remember the Mick Foley that burnt himself while wrestling Terry Funk? Does anybody even remember him winning the WWF title? Does anybody remember his ***** I cannot spell 'feud' with Big Van Vader? Nope. They remember him jobbing to Triple H at both No Way Out and Wrestlemania 2000. Foley should have won the title as a show of thanks by Triple H and Vince McMahon at Wrestlemania, since Foley was already "retired". Instead Triple H showed his true colors even then.

"Hogan . . . helped make Brock's career"

Noting by the canned chants on Smackdown, and all non-New York State crowds, I still procliam Brock Lesnar as the "next big DUD".

"He also had some of his best matches ever in those last days."

Okay name some (Oh you did?)

"Hogan/Rock"

The last time we saw the real Hulk Hogan. He "hulked up" from a true finishing move, and only lost because Rock kept on pounding him with "Rock Bottoms" and a "People's Elbow".

"Hogan/Jericho"

I actually gained some respect for Jericho in both of his matches with Hogan on Smackdown (April and June 2002). Jericho's ability to become Randy Savage in both matches really made the matches cool. I mean, have you ever seen Jericho do a "Flying Axe-Handing" on anyone before he did it to Hogan?

I just didn't like the endings of either match, but since Triple H and Hogan aren't really the best of friends, the only way ceiling-bump Jericho could job to Hogan was either with his (Triple H's) help or by DQ.

"Hogan/Angle"

Great match, but the I cannot spell 'feud' was booked as a joke fued. Instead of "Real American" vs. "Real Olympic Hero" it was a match between "two bald men" (KOR) and a battle to see who gets Brock Lensar's a$$ (7/02 smackdown). I will admit the Smackdown match flowed much better.

"The torch needs to be passed, man!"

Why? A torch should not be passed until you EARN IT. I mean there are plenty of people that haven't earned it (Triple H) that refuses to let go and was never over to begin with.

"Create new stars."

Stars are being created no matter who is at the top. Hogan was billed as "superman" and if George Reeves was alive today, would you want him to admit it was all fake when the world believed he was the unbeatable man of steal.

"You say that Hogan would be back if he needed the money."

No. I said that if he needed the money, he'd kiss Vince's ass and be made to look like even more of a jobber. Remember Hogan made McMahon, and McMahon has a hard time with that.

"Hogan burned out; he didn't fade away."

Wrong. Vince McMahon wanted him to job to Brock again, and wouldn't pay him for the Aussie tour what he deserved. That is why Hogan is gone.

"Do I want Hogan back. Yes, but not as champ. Hogan doesn't need the belt to be over. He never did."

Hogan doesn't need the title, just needs to win and be the old Hogan. That's what the fans wanted -- the real Hogan!

"What are going to do, put the belt on the guy until he's 80, just because he's a legend. That's just bad for business."

So is having the booker's boyfriend as the top guy too, but I rather have Hogan over him.

"As I see it, after being screwed by Russo, Hogan was fairly depressed that the career of the greatest icon in wrestling history could be soiled by a hack writer."

Agreed.

"Hogan legacy is complete our last memories of him are now extremely positive. He wanted to ride out on top."

If you think that is what Hogan got from his WWE tenure, then more power to you.

"And years from now, if Lesnar realizes his potential, he can look back and say that his match against Hogan was one of the big turning points in his career."

The next BIG DUD!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
markout
Man of a Thousand Holds






Posts 1300
Registered 1-4-2002
Location Elsewhere
Member Is Offline

Mood: Zen-tastic

posted on 12-10-2002 at 08:05 PM Edit Post
Gotta agree with Milky...Foley was what made WWE great in the Attitude years. Anytime a new and unproven champ took the belt...they had their first feud with Foley. He put over Austin as Dude Love, the Rock as Mankind (after getting his well-deserved title reign) and HHH as Mankind and Cactus Jack. The man had no respect for his own body but nothing but respect for the business. Without Foley, who could be plugged into a main event on a moment's notice and be taken seriously, the WWE has been lacking.





Do NOT fuck with my chi.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-10-2002 at 08:53 PM Edit Post
quote:
I mean that match with Rock was the last time Hogan was looked at as a real threat, the rest of the time he was booked as an old man that needed the "young bucks" of today to help him. Hell, my father is over 50 and could beat my a$$ in a legit fight.


Well, my dad is also 50 and I could probably mess him up! What he hell does that prove. Do you have the strength and physique of the Rock! Seriously!
Hogan never looked like a "real threat". Hogan looked like the cartoon character he always did. If you're trying to tell me that you believed Hogan was physically capable of beating Rocky or Angle with the "Legdrop of Doom", fine. I'm just not buying it. I loved Hogan when I was a kid for the same reason I read Spider-man comics. The man was a superhero. Hogan's schtick is no more believeable than the Hurricane's.

quote:
Why? A torch should not be passed until you EARN IT. I mean there are plenty of people that haven't earned it (Triple H) that refuses to let go and was never over to begin with.


Are you kidding me? Triple H was never over? Jesus man, I don't even know what to say. That's laughable.

quote:
Remember Hogan made McMahon, and McMahon has a hard time with that.


Yes, then Austin and the Rock made McMahon even bigger. And a lot of people say Hogan's politics was one of the original causes of WCW folding. It goes both ways.

quote:
Hogan doesn't need the title, just needs to win and be the old Hogan. That's what the fans wanted -- the real Hogan!


Once again the "real" or "old" Hogan was a young
man. Things changed, he's not coming back...

Look, I loved Hogan's comeback. Thought it was great. But I also think he went out the right way, on top of the biz but still putting over the next generation of stars.

And I think that most people agree with me. If you think Foley went out a joke, and that people don't respect him for losing those matches, dream on... Take a poll. I'm confident that most people feel the same. Same goes for Hogan. I think most people think he had it pretty good. Not to many people are walking away with bitter feelings in their mouthes.

There are those that bash Hogan and will never like his return. They're pessimists and take this sport to seriously as far as I'm concerned. You can't change that. Scott Keith, I'm looking at you.

But then there are also those who are just such marks for Hogan, that they believe he can do no wrong. Blind alegiance to a guy is no better. You're not satisfied that Hogan went out more popular than he'd ever been in over 10 years? You think he needed to bury company guys like Rocky and Taker, and young talents like Angle and Lesnar to create some kind of legacy?

Dude, I'm never going to agree.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 12:14 AM Edit Post
"Hogan never looked like a 'real threat'. Hogan looked like the cartoon character he always did. If you're trying to tell me that you believed Hogan was physically capable of beating Rocky or Angle with the "Legdrop of Doom", fine. I'm just not buying it."

I never said that, but yeah Hogan could shoot on most of the so-called young bucks and teach them respect.

"Hogan's schtick is no more believeable than the Hurricane's."

What an insult. That is like comparing Adam West's TV show Batman with George Reeves' TV show of Superman. Hurricane is booked like Adam West's batman, while Hogan was Superman -- never ages -- never loses -- puts all the filth in their place -- like America used to. If Hogan's legacy dies, then we admit that America has died. Like when John Wayne died, we lost a true American Icon. Hogan is still living . . . so he should stay what he used to be.

"Triple H was never over? Jesus man, I don't even know what to say. That's laughable."

He was over thanks to three guys that were forced to put him over because of who he was sleeping with. I'll admit the guy has some fans now, but I am as anti-Triple H as some people were anti-Hogan and nothing you say will change that, so lets move on.

"And a lot of people say Hogan's politics was one of the original causes of WCW folding."

And the Civil War was fought just to free slaves, and not about State's rights. Jesus Christ, Vince Russo destroyed WCW and if he hadn't screwed Hogan -- WCW would still be around today. Period.

"Once again the 'real' . . . Hogan was a young man. Things changed, he's not coming back..."

He will if he goes to Japan with Goldberg. I mean Jerry Lewis allows Charo to sing at his Telethon like its 1978 again, so we just need to find a place for Hogan where it can be 1984 and he gives fans like me what we want from him. If he can't destroy the pukes like Jericho, Triple H, etc.. then Hogan should just go to Japan or retire -- and let America fall deeper into the liberal shitter that it is in. Hulk Hogan was the last thing that made America great. He was what America used to be, and should still be if it wasn't for all the dope smokers that vote Democrat.

"If you think Foley went out a joke, and that people don't respect him for losing those matches, dream on... Take a poll."

Other people don't count. It is how I feel about it, and if you don't respect my opinion, well . . .

The point is that Foley deserved the title, Triple H did not. Triple H got where he got because he had the right friends, the right contract, and he kept where he got by bedding Steph. Talent had little to do with Triple H getting over where he is today. Sure Rock, Foley, and even Austin was able to make him a legit Superstar, but that was in 2000. His time passed -- it is time for him to move on, because unlike Austin, Rock, or Hogan -- Triple H never really put asses in seats.

"You're not satisfied that Hogan went out more popular than he'd ever been in over 10 years?"

Hogan was always popular, it was just that WCW fans were all southern boys that couldn't stand "Northern raised boy" to be in their backyards.

"You think he needed to bury company guys like Rocky and Taker, and young talents like Angle and Lesnar to create some kind of legacy?"

Lesnar, yes, and maybe Taker because Hogan was already 2 down on Taker. I was okay for him jobbing to Angle, just not the way they booked the match and the ending at KOR.

I hope Hogan tells Vince at their meeting tonight to kiss his ass, and goes to Japan where he can squash the Japs and be the real Hulk Hogan again.

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 12:47 AM Edit Post
Yeah right, Hogan was the pillar upon which America was built. Ha! His name's on your constituion, isn't it?

The reason I don't respect your opinion, Bud, is because it's becoming completely obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

WCW was in a decline well before Russo ever came around. Look at the godamn numbers...

Triple H got with Stephanie way after he was already over. He got with after his first Title reigns. He beat Austin and Foley in a match at Summerslam 99 and his push had been planned since he joined the corporation that year at Wrestlemania. By all accounts he didn't actually have an affair with Steph until around the summer 2000. At this point he had already held the title for over half a year. This is after his epic battles with Foley and some of his early matches with the Rock. This is after Austin disappeared for neck surgery.

Not only that, but he got over because of a string of awesome matches, like his Iron Man Match with Rock, his matches with guys like Taka, or his 2 out of 3 Falls with Austin, and his well booked feuds with Kurt Angle over Stephanie.

Triple H has been in the Match of the Year for the last two years running on OO.

It's obvious you don't really weren't watching back then. There's no way anybody that was would ever claim Triple H wasn't over. Stop throwing these ignorant smark cliches at me...

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bonestein
The Rowdy One






Posts 2712
Registered 7-24-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: partypartyparty

posted on 12-11-2002 at 12:56 AM Edit Post
I gotta go with Milky on this. I don't have the desire to get into details, but Bud, your stuff is bordering on ridiculous. Just say "I think all this because I'm a big Hogan mark", and that will be accepted, but don't even bother with those "facts" like if Hogan still held the belt, WCW would still be rolling, because that is complete and utter b.s.





That's racism man! I love to racism bro!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 01:08 AM Edit Post
Exactly. I'm not rying to pull rank because I've been watching longer, but be honest, man. I'll respect your opinion as long as you admit it's limitations.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
cpdevine1
The Great One






Posts 3305
Registered 10-26-2002
Location nowhere fun
Member Is Offline

Mood: in utter disbel

posted on 12-11-2002 at 01:49 AM Edit Post
Going away from Hogan/Flair for a second, I have to agree with Markout about Foley and how he had feuds with Rock and Austin and HHH when they became champs...he forgot to mention HBK, they had a KILLER match for the belt at an in your house PPV that Foley almost won. That match itself put HBK over as a champ.
View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
TheBadGuy
Turd Generation Superstar






Posts 15
Registered 7-20-2002
Location newington CT
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 03:58 AM Edit Post
I just have one thing to say:

Can U dig it Suckaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bonestein
The Rowdy One






Posts 2712
Registered 7-24-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: partypartyparty

posted on 12-11-2002 at 04:10 AM Edit Post
Thanks for sharing.





That's racism man! I love to racism bro!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 01:42 PM Edit Post
Guys, I know I am a small voice that has a different opinion that yours, and that some of the evidence out there doesn't back up my claims. As I said before, some of my beliefs come from the heart and I wanted you guys to know that. Sometimes facts are only seen as you want to see them.

"Yeah right, Hogan was the pillar upon which America was built. . . .The reason I don't respect your opinion, Bud, is because it's becoming completely obvious that you don't know what you're talking about."

Milky, to me Hogan is what made wrestling great, as some people would claim John Wayne was what was great about America. Hogan was like a symbol of what the 1980s was all about, but the fans wanted to see him win and ride off into the sunset. Do you think the fans enjoyed watching people counter Hogan's "primative" offense? That's like telling the world that Santa Claus isn't real anymore -- its time to grow up. Hogan never had to win the title, I just don't like seeing people beat Hogan because this is wrestling. I posted a RSPW message from a guy name Jiro, and he said what I said about Hogan needing to be the real Hogan because wrestling isn't real. Yet, when Hogan turns 49/50, we talk about how old he is and how we need reality in wrestling. How many more myths do we need to destroy?

"WCW was in a decline well before Russo ever came around."

Yes they were, but I was enjoying the product. I even enjoyed the finger-poke-of-doom when it first happened. Of course, I know the minor backlash that caused, but that was more due to Kevin Nash than Hulk Hogan's booking. If Hogan has control of the entire product, things would have been much better. If Russo had never been allowed to come in, I think WCW would have recovered with a Hogan vs. Hart main event at Starrcade 99 with Hogan going over Hart.

"Triple H got with Stephanie way after he was already over."

Maybe. Stephanie once said she and Hunter got together the first time in early 2000, but it was just a quickie. Because of her nature during the interview, she might have been just talking a lot of crap, but she did say it."

"He beat Austin and Foley in a match at Summerslam 99 and his push had been planned since he joined the corporation that year at Wrestlemania."

Like I said in my last post. He got where he got due to good friends (Shawn Michaels, Sean Waltman, etc..), a good contract (Vince took a liking to him and was actually over as a D-X midcarder, so Vince promised him a title regin), and the final piece of the puzzle was Stephanie.

"By all accounts he didn't actually have an affair with Steph until around the summer 2000. . . . This is after his epic battles with Foley and some of his early matches with the Rock. This is after Austin disappeared for neck surgery."

Well I never liked the man, period. He gave me gas (go-away-heat) when he and Steph got together in the storylines. He should have jobbed at Wrestlemania 2000, and instead the entire McMahon klan (sans Linda) gets back together and helps Triple H retain. Triple H then loses his title to Rock by screwjob from Austin, only to win the title back by DQ in a Iron-man match. Then Hunter won't even job the title cleanly. Rock wins the title by PINNING VINCE MCMAHON.

"It's obvious you don't really weren't watching back then. There's no way anybody that was would ever claim Triple H wasn't over."

He was semi-over back then, to the point that he should have turned face. I was actually starting to like him during late 2000 during his Benoit feud. I heard the pops, but Austin and Rock got bigger pops and because Trips couldn't stand being third bannana. Back then Rock and Austin were still established top stars, and Vince hadn't allowed Steph to become head-booker. Still, Hunter had enough influence to get himself turned back to a heel, after months of building him up to facedom.

So maybe I am off when I say he was never over, but he did so much politics even before Steph got full control, that it ruined any good opinion I had of him.


"Bud, your stuff is bordering on ridiculous. Just say "I think all this because I'm a big Hogan mark", and that will be accepted"

Bonestein, I tried to explain that most I was saying came from the heart, and I couldn't back it up with true facts. I will say that if there was a fact that might have been backed up was when Russo decided to rid himself of all "established" talent and just build the company on men that nobody had ever heard of, that was what truly killed WCW. Hogan never needed the belt, but the way Hogan was taken off TV wasn't just a slap in Hogan's face, but any established superstar that ever had been made by either WCW or WWF.

"I'll respect your opinion as long as you admit it's limitations."

Some of it is limitations, and some of it is bias.

"Ellock, you are seriously fucking demented."

This comes from a guy that writes crazy columns every week.

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bonestein
The Rowdy One






Posts 2712
Registered 7-24-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: partypartyparty

posted on 12-11-2002 at 02:51 PM Edit Post
Bud, I'm sorry, but I have to retort one more time... you're driving my batty with this crap.

First of all, saying that WCW would be in good shape had Hogan kept the book is absurd. Do you remember WCW in 1994? The WCW where Hogan was bringing in crap after crap after crap (Ed Leslie anyone?). Not only that, but he was only booking to make himself and his so-not-over buddies look good (him and Macho Man beating what was it, 7 or 9 guys in that Chamber of Horrors?). I mean, it was AWFUL. AWFUL. And I think your selective memory has chosen to overlook the FACT that the fans turned on Hogan. They did, there is no arguing this. Pretty much from "go", WCW fans didn't like Hogan, because he came from the WWF- he wasn't WCW like Flair, Sting, etc. Oh yeah, and by the way, the fans turned on Hogan in the WWF too, most notably when he was going up against Sid Justice.

2nd of all, just a minor point, but Sean Waltman did sweet dick all in getting HHH over and helping him with management. That little prick got fired from the WWF, then fired by WCW, he was in no position to be helping out his buddies- in fact, it was the reverse- if anything, HHH helped X-Pac get on with the WWF and get push.

Really man, your posts on this subject are absolutely ludicrous. I wish to God you were just kidding about the stuf you are saying, so we could all have a good laugh about it, rather than worrying about your mental health. Enough distorting the facts already, chico.





That's racism man! I love to racism bro!

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bud Ellock
Banned






Posts 70
Registered 11-7-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 03:45 PM Edit Post
"First of all, saying that WCW would be in good shape had Hogan kept the book is absurd. Do you remember WCW in 1994?"

Not to drive you insane, Bonestein, I enjoyed WCW in 1994 with Hogan's booking. I think in 1995 when Hogan fell through the Dungeon of Doom was stupid, but his booking in 1994 was pretty good. Sure, putting Brutus Beefcake in a main event sucked, but there were some good points to his booking. I can't speak for others due to even the RSPW archives hated Hogan at the time, but I loved it. Sorry. I even loved seeing Hogan beat up 20 guys, again I'm sorry -- I enjoyed it.

"And I think your selective memory has chosen to overlook the FACT that the fans turned on Hogan. They did, there is no arguing this."

Nope. I said WCW fans hated him from the word go. I mean he had 45%-75% fan base during 1994-1996, but I always felt it was because of Hogan being not WCW made, like you said.

"Oh yeah, and by the way, the fans turned on Hogan in the WWF too, most notably when he was going up against Sid Justice."

As much as I'd like to say something to oppose you just to drive you nuts, I know all about the Sid thing, but that didn't last long as the crowd was pro-Hogan by Wresltemania 8. Of course, showing that "re-dubbed" Royal Rumble footage might have helped his cause. I guess I'm just very pro-Hogan.

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Milky
And I am AWESOME






Posts 239
Registered 1-24-2002
Location Victoria, BC, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood.

posted on 12-11-2002 at 11:54 PM Edit Post
Alright, Bud, fine. You're a Hogan mark. I can accept that. Hell, I can respect that to a degree.

You see, as long as you accept that you're in the minority on this one and that none of that shit is based on fact, but on personal feelings, we're cool. Up until now I've never really taken exception with any of your posts.

Just don't tell me that HHH wasn't over in 90% of the audiences eyes, or that Foley lost respect for his jobbing to HHH. If you feel that way, fine. I'll still call you crazy, but just admit that that's just your pesonal (albiet warped) opinion.

It's been fun. I enjoyed this.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll


go to top


Powered by XMB 1.8 Partagium Final SP1
Developed By Aventure Media & The XMB Group
Processed in 0.1014249 seconds, 21 queries