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Author: Subject: My parents don't believe in evolution
doctorb
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posted on 2-27-2010 at 06:24 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BBMN
You'll have to provide examples... I'm sure there is an instance or two where even the most vocal atheist would agree, but then again, this statement can cut both ways... there's people that feel that they must insert (their) religion into all types of publicly funded institutions. If people hate the separation of church and state so much... there's always Saudi Arabia.


Carl Sagan's panspermia comes to mind (cums to mind?). Which might address the issue with the earth not being old enough to support DNA formation from base proteins, but there's still the problem that the universe still isn't old enough (I know this is abiogenesis and not technically evolution).

I was talking to SETI physicist years ago and asked him how likely he thought there really was other intelligent life out there, since astronomers and biologists seem to disagree on that likelihood. There's two ways to look at the chance of dna formation: either there's an endless supply of soups of proteins and one will coalesce into dna, but the chances of that happening is so small that there aren't enough planets in the universe to support it, or you have one location and one soup and wait long enough for chance to form the dna molecule, in which case the universe isn't old enough. His reply was that since we're here talking about it, it happened. Just because the chance is 1 in 10 to the 25th power doesn't mean you have to turn over all 10 to the 25th coins to get the right one. Maybe you get the right one really early - or we're missing a piece of the puzzle and the chance is much lower than we think. Either way, since it happened here it could happen out there. To me, the idea that in 13 billion year old universe with a vastness we can't measure there still shouldn't be dna points to a creator, to the non-believer it just means we're lucky, and if we weren't lucky we'd never know.

I was out for beers and football with two college physics profs, one was my 325 instructor and the other was a guest speaker. I don't remember what the guest (who was a believer) asked, but the answer from my non-believer prof was "couldn't entropy have entered our universe from a dying universe in another dimension?" He caught my WTF look and said, "well is that really any less believable than a supreme God?" I told him that I personally would say yes, but I could see his point and I hope he never mocks someone for believing in an unseen god.

It's like I said before, it's rarely about creation and evolution - your preconceptions about a divine God make something as unknowable like the progression of the universe too big to argue without falling back on the god vs no god debate. We might agree 100% on the timeline of the universe and you can say that the gaps and impossibilities are just things we don't know yet scientifically, and I'll say that God did it.


quote:
Originally posted by borntorun
BZZT WRONG

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.


We know that the big bang happened (Gen 1:1) and eventually gas coalesced into a giant spinning disk and smaller accretion disks formed (Gen 1:2). Formless and void. Then the center disk got massive enough to spark a nuclear reaction while the smaller, outer disks coalesced into solid masses but were not massive enough to go nuclear (Gen 1:3).


quote:
Originally posted by atothej
This is an interesting point, but it still then presupposes that God created circumstances under which some of his creation could not survive without adaptation. Therefore, God created a being that could not survive, as created, in the world he created. Then, he gave them adaptability rather than simply set up the world so that they would be acclimated to it without changes.

Again, if the idea is that God simply sets things in motion and then the mechanism must work, I can see that. Usually, however, that is not the perception of most Christians regarding God.

Theologically, though, the two are very different. Man's fall is stems from free will, not an inability to survive in the conditions as created. Without getting into a long discussion of free will, I think it is apparent that the finch's beak change is one that was necessitated by the finch living in an environment in which it could not survive. Thus, God created a being (the finch) and an environment that were incompatible. That would appear to be an error in design that belies omniscience and infallibility.

[Edited on 2-27-2010 by atothej]


I think what you're missing, or maybe it's the way I'm reading it, is the free will leading to the fall. The bible tells us that God became displeased with his creation, indicating it did change from what he intended. Not because he goofed, but because we did.

Damn bitches and their apples:






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borntorun
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posted on 2-27-2010 at 06:55 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by doctorb

We know that the big bang happened (Gen 1:1) and eventually gas coalesced into a giant spinning disk and smaller accretion disks formed (Gen 1:2). Formless and void. Then the center disk got massive enough to spark a nuclear reaction while the smaller, outer disks coalesced into solid masses but were not massive enough to go nuclear (Gen 1:3).




My "BZZT WRONG" comment was about OOMike's statement that "then there was light" WAS the Big Bang, which is impossible because in the creation story the earth was created before light.

But aside from that, your analysis (and Genesis) goes against the common belief that the sun is older than the earth as well as later happenings in the creation story that has God create stars and, depending on which version you're reading, the moon and the sun itself after Earth is basically finished.

[Edited on 2-27-2010 by borntorun]





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nilesanderson
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posted on 3-13-2010 at 12:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by drmuerto
And yet in the Bible they profess to read the god they profess to believe in is constantly revising its plan. First it's all "Oh whoops, you eat from the tree of knowledge, you have to leave paradise". Then it's all, "Too much sin around, so I'm gonna wipe it all out with a flood and we can start over with sort of a clean slate" After that it's all, "We can't have this Tower of Bable thing, so now everyone has to speak a different language." Then it's "OK seriously now, let's set up a covenant and me lay out the ten commandments you have to follow." Then it's, "Remember that last covenant? That's null now, and I'm gonna send my child down to set up a new one." Then Paul's, presumably speaking for god's interest, says that you don't have to get circumcised any more. And so forth.

The way I figure it, the only way you can claim the inerrancy of the Judeo-Christian god is to not actually read the texts that claim to depict it. And in fact there are a number of studies about these sorts of fundamentalist and literalist forms of Christianity that show that what's important is that you claim the inerrancy of the Bible, not that you actually know much about its content.


The problem with these fundamentalist sects of Christianity is that they worship The Bible, not God. By doing this, they are going against one of the great commandments "thou shalt not worship any god but me" aka Idol Worship. Bible worship is idol worship. Which means the opinions of all fundamentalist Christians should be taken with a grain of salt because they are all idiots. But you all already know this.

As for evolution disproving the existence of God because it shows he had to tweak his invention as it went on, as Dr Muerto pointed out, The Bible points out the EXACT SAME THING! The idea behind the constant introduction of new covenants is that idiotic people routinely clung onto outdated values. As a result, they stagnated and became lost and did not understand why. So these new covenants were introduced so as help these people move on with their lives. Regardless, we still had (and continue to have) free will so we are allowed to choose what covenant we follow.

In essence, new covenants are introduced every day. The people responsible for promoting The Bible just decided that they are irrelevant because they are not in The Bible.

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Devineman
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posted on 3-13-2010 at 02:03 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Maybe I need to spend more time on American-heavy sites, but I'm actually shocked by some of the opinions in this thread regarding evolution, what it is, and how it may level with Christianity.

I'm going to keep pretty stum as this is an emotive issue and I'm sure I'd add nothing but fuel to a fire that really shouldn't be burning. The one thing that I will say, is that I am a Christian and there is absolutely no argument in any community (apart from religious ones) about evolution.

It doesn't fit with my religion, but neither does millions of other things, and people should stop trying to jam it in. Faith is called faith because it's hard to believe in, if you need to make it 'easier' by jamming science into your religion, then I'd take a look at how strong your commitment to God really is.

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DrBoz
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posted on 3-16-2010 at 04:50 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Faith is called faith because it's hard to believe in....

Isn't this like the opposite of faith? True faith is an unwavering belief in the face of all attempts to dissuade. Faith is also something that, by definition, cannot be proved. Otherwise, it would be fact (or fiction if disproved).

Oops sorry. Forgot that my main purpose was to attempt to derail this thread. So here is true faith:



[Edited on 3-16-2010 by DrBoz]





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Thom
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posted on 3-16-2010 at 03:05 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Did somebody say, "Faith?"








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DrBoz
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posted on 3-16-2010 at 03:34 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
Why yes. Yes I did!







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Columbo
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posted on 3-16-2010 at 11:04 PM Edit Post Reply With Quote
i miss eli stone





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wings76fan
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posted on 8-9-2010 at 02:04 AM Edit Post Reply With Quote
How's this for a merging of creationism with conspiracy: my dad seems to think that Jesus was an alien and that he'll "be back soon."
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