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Author: Subject: MLB Offseason/Hot Stove/Mets Crash-and-Burn Thread 07/08
chretienbabacool
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 05:38 PM Edit Post
MLB Offseason/Hot Stove/Mets Crash-and-Burn Thread 07/08

Ok, let's put our offseason talk here. ARod is going to the Cubs, we all know that, but what else is going to happen?

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by LuckyLopez]





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loki
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 05:39 PM Edit Post
07-08 MLB Offseason / Hot Stove / Mets Crash-and-Burn Thread

This is for any team not named the Indians, Diamonbacks, Rockies or Red Sox*. Go to it, guys!






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loki
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 05:41 PM Edit Post
Damn. You beat me to it by, like, 5 seconds. I vote we keep mine. The title is funnier.
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Parker Lewis
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 06:28 PM Edit Post
The Giants are going to sign an over the hill player to a multi year too expensive contract.
(I hope Sabean has changed his ways but I'll believe it when I see it.)





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 07:36 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by chretienbabacool
ARod is going to the Cubs, we all know that, but what else is going to happen?

I'd blow a kangaroo, a walrus, a hippo, and a giraffe if that could happen. But not a Moose. That would be gross.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:05 PM Edit Post
Manager Moves to Affect Mo Signing

quote:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Mariano Rivera isn't happy that Joe Torre might be out as manager of the New York Yankees and said the team's decision will be factored into whether he returns.

"I don't feel good about it," Rivera said Wednesday, two days after the Yankees were eliminated from the playoffs. "I don't see why they're even thinking (about letting Torre go). I wish he's back, definitely. If you ask me what I would want, I want him back."
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Rivera's contract also is expiring and he is eligible to become a free agent. He said whether Torre returns will help determine whether he remains with the Yankees.

"It might do a lot of it," he said. "I mean, I've been with Joe for so many years, and the kind of person he has been for me and for my teammates. It's been great. The thing is that I don't see why they have to put him in this position."

Rivera, who turns 38 next month, plans to speak with Torre soon. The pitcher, regarded by many as baseball's greatest closer, wanted to negotiate an extension during spring training, but the Yankees decided to delay talks until after the season. He made $10.5 million.

"I'm going to be open to hear all offers," said Rivera, who wants a multiyear contract. "The Yankees had the opportunity but didn't do nothing with it."

Asked if the Yankees would be his first choice regardless of the decision on Torre, he responded: "Right now, I can't tell you that." Asked about his relationship with Torre, Rivera responded: "We laugh, we joke, we secretly want each other to choke on our own vomit in a cheap hotel room after a night of questionably legal, and certainly morally wrong sex with people who may, or may not, be legal residents of the United States. But in the end, we are a family"



Ok maybe that last part isn't true. Maybe.

So with the possibility of losing Mo, Pettitte, Posada and A-Rod, and at least some of it decided by whether Torre is there or not, how much leverage does that give Torre? Any at all?

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by mooseheadjack]





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Super Grover
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:08 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by mooseheadjack
So with the possibility of losing Mo, Pettitte, Posada and A-Rod, and at least some of it decided by whether Torre is there or not, how much leverage does that give Torre? Any at all?


I don't think it gives him too much leverage, if any at all. When Steinbrenner is in his "Cuz I'm the BOSS, that's why!!!" mode he doesn't really care what other people think.

If Steinbrenner wants Torre gone, then he's gone, regardless of the ripple effect, I think.





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metallikid
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:14 PM Edit Post
I don't think Torre has anything to do with A Rod. I think he might with Pettitte, Mo, and Posada. I think the Yanks need to do what they need to with Joe and then try and deal witht he rest. I lovew Pettitte and Mo and want them to stay but they each only have a few seasons left in them anyway. I'd offer Posada a huge contract short term contract and if he still wants to go so be it. I've said my piece about A Rod. Throw the checkbook at him and make sure he signs the extension. While he may have grown to respect Torre this season I'm sure he doesn't love him like Jeter, Mo, Posada, Andy, or Clemens does.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:20 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by metallikid
I've said my piece about A Rod. Throw the checkbook at him and make sure he signs the extension. While he may have grown to respect Torre this season I'm sure he doesn't love him like Jeter, Mo, Posada, Andy, or Clemens does.

Nope, he has already expressed his love for Lou.
quote:
During an interview with Real Sports' Frank Deford -- which airs on Monday -- A-Rod gives former manager Lou Piniella an enthusiastic endorsement. In fact, he was so complimentary of Piniella, it is difficult not to interpret A-Rod's warm words as not only a slap at Torre, but a silent plea for the Cubs to come rescue him.

"He's been just like a father to me," A-Rod said of Piniella, the focus of HBO's report.






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metallikid
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:28 PM Edit Post
If the Yanks offer a big extension and he opts out ass me to the list of A Rod haters. I really don't want that to happen since I want to cheer on the man who beats Bonds and I'd love that man to be a Yankee while he is doing it.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:33 PM Edit Post
wait, so if he opts out of his contract and doesn't take the Yankees money to play for fans who have done nothing but boo his every move, NOW you are going to hate him?

What?





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LuckyLopez
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:33 PM Edit Post
Yankee fans have done nothing but boo A-Rod's every move? Yeah, that's some retardedly blind vision you got there, Moose.

Great. Now all you need to do is find an owner who's willing to spend when you've already got around $100M tied up for '08. And with Soriano already holding a big, backloaded contract mostly in his declining years.

Posada, Pettitte, Mariano, and A-Rod are adults. Until otherwise noted I'm gonna presume they don't run away from NY because NY decided not to re-sign Torre to a 13th year in pinstripes. In the immediate aftermath of Torre's teary press conference and the idea that he is being blamed even I am a Torre fan. But in a month when they're negotiating their careers and futures I'm gonna presume they'll have more pressing concerns than feeling bad that their manager wasn't allowed to manage the Yankees until he died.

Maybe 1 or all of them gets all whiny about it or the Yanks give genuine reason to rub them the wrong way about how they handle it. But geez, its a contract negotiation. What do you want? The guy was given a $200M payroll year after year and the team has completely fallen on its face in the playoffs 4 years in a row. 3 years being completely futile. Its gonna leave a mark. They know that and they should rationalize it when the emotions fade a little.

If not, they're old and giving Posada or Mariano 3 or 4 year deals is likely to bite the Yankees on the backend anyway. Not that I don't think they HAVE to give those contracts if it comes to it, but that's short term need and emotion.

No leverage for Joe at all. I can't believe that Cashman or Steinbrennar would allow players to hold the team hostage and run it. That's just bad business no matter who you are. If it means the Yanks have to go fishing for a SP, C, and/or Closer, so be it. My worst fear out of that is if Mo goes than I know Joba's in the pen.

ARGH!

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by LuckyLopez]





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metallikid
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:38 PM Edit Post
Some Yankee fans have booed him. Not all. He has had his ups and downs with the fans and the media but he came here to win a title and now it loks like the team is finally filled with some good young arms that can make that goal a reality. Leaving now would be admitting he can't take the pressure of playing on the biggest stage. It would be a shame since this season the fans really seemed to embrace him. I expected a few boos during Games 3 & 4 but didn't hear any. Perhaps even the worst of the Yankees fans have learned.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:40 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Yankee fans have done nothing but boo A-Rod's every move? Yeah, that's some retardedly blind vision you got there, Moose.



Jeez Lopez, FINE, the majority of the Yankees fans have done nothing but complain about him during the bulk of his time in New York. Is that better?

I find it amusing that the fans can rail on him and nothing he ever does is good enough, and it is ok because he is getting paid a shit ton of money, and he is "one of us" or whatever but when he mentions opting out suddenly he is satan or something.

anyway, lighten up Lopez, I wasn't just bashing the Yankees, jeez

- Kid, I am not so sure about that. The Yankees were built to win when A-Rod got to NY and it never happened. I am not so sure just stocking up on some young arms makes that much of a difference to him. But I have no idea. Maybe he is just tired of the pressure of NY and feels he has a better chance to win a WS elsewhere.

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by mooseheadjack]





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:42 PM Edit Post
Chrissy make no mistake he's going to opt out. We're talking about the greatest player of our lifetime, perhaps ever, getting a chance at his last monster contract. And he has Boras as his client. And there's talk of possible ownership down the line. And he's chasing Bonds. And he's chasing Rose. There's no way he's not going to at least see what other teams will offer him and more importantly, Boras needs A-Rod to opt out in order to get the Sox, Mets, Cubs, Angels and Yanks in a bidding war to jack up the price.





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metallikid
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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:47 PM Edit Post
But who in the end has the most money to spend? The Yankees. So if they want the most money they'd be smart to let the Yankees sign him to the monster extension. They can offer as much as the Yankees can and on top of that still get the $21 million from Texas. If the Yankees go to the table not playing hardball I can easily see a scenario where they don't need to opt out.

And Moose, I think it is a minority not a majority of Yankee fans who shit on A Rod.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:49 PM Edit Post
The majority? Really? You have ANY way to support that?

The media's been very tough on him and this "A-Rod is a choker" thing has had quite a life. But its been the media and YOU Yankee haters probably more than the fanbase itself. Not to say that quite a few Yankee fans aren't on that page as well and he DID get booed quite a bit. But he's been cheered MUCH more. We're basically talking 3 years of cheers vs 1 year of boos, if that. As a regular visitor I can assure that his number and name is plastered all over the Bronx and Washington Heights. Mike and the Maddog, Michael Kay, Steven A Smith, Max Kellerman, Peter Abrahams, and many other major NY media members love him and have great relationships with him. His merchandise sells a ton and ticket sales went through the roof when he was traded here.

You're talking about a vocal minority as always, Moose. Just like its a vocal minority of racist, drunk, violent shitbags that gave Philly fans a bad name. Just like a vocal minority booed Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera.

Could A-Rod want out because he doesn't want a home crowd that will boo him if he struggles or media that will be merciless? Sure. But there's no way that even half his reception from the NY fanbase has been boos and hate.

But I also don't think that if he opts out its necessarily him admitting he "can't take it." He could easily just not like it here. And if he goes to Anaheim or Boston I fail to see how he took a step back competition wise. Or he could just be a greedy SOB who goes for the money. Which you know, any honest fan would have to already presume of him when he signed a massive deal to an incompetent franchise that had no chance of competing under the weight of his contract (or really, even without it). And then bailed once that became crystal clear.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:49 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Posada, Pettitte, Mariano, and A-Rod are adults. Until otherwise noted I'm gonna presume they don't run away from NY because NY decided not to re-sign Torre to a 13th year in pinstripes. In the immediate aftermath of Torre's teary press conference and the idea that he is being blamed even I am a Torre fan. But in a month when they're negotiating their careers and futures I'm gonna presume they'll have more pressing concerns than feeling bad that their manager wasn't allowed to manage the Yankees until he died.


I didn't take it like they would get whiny and leave out of defense for Torre. I more thought that they would decide if they wanted to play for the new manager the same way any of us would look at the managment of a company we were looking to work for. Who the manager is will dictate a lot in regard to your work environment.

That said, we are talking a ton of loot here. That is going to be the over riding factor, I would imagine.

The funny part for me is that Posada seems like the only one of the three (Mo, Pettitte, Posada) that I feel like they really *have* to sign. If Mo goes, I'd be willing to experiment with a FA closer or giving a guy like Veras a shot at the role. Pettitte, as much as I love the guy, is really just a slightly above average pitcher - and one that is on the wrong side of 35 come spring training. Plus, he holds the option, so if he stays or goes is really up to him.

I don't want Mo to go, but I also think we would be alright if he decided to leave. Losing Posada would hurt a bit. I don't want to give him a 4 year deal or anything but if it takes a couple extra bucks to get him locked in for a year or two until we come up with backup plan, then it is probably worth it.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:55 PM Edit Post
I really think the Torre thing is going to have a huge ripple effect for the Yankees short term plans. I get the feeling that it seems like if one of the guys follow Torre out of NY, they're all going to go. Mariano might not want to be on a team without Torre, but if you add the possibility that Posada won't be there as the catcher, that's another negative to re-signing in NY. The reverse could also be true where Posada doesn't think the team will be as good without Mo closing games anymore.

Add in, that even if he's not a popular Yankee, taking A-Rod out of the lineup is going to have to hurt somewhat. Maybe due to all these little things adding up, we could see a totally different Yankee team on the field next season with Jeter being the only guy left from the World Championship teams.

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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:57 PM Edit Post
Posada's a need because we have NO solution at C. Cashman has been ridiculously negligent in that regard his entire tenure. Never drafts Cs. Never trades for a young one. Dealt away the one even potentially half way decent looking one we had in Dionar Navaro. Finally found himself a decent backup C but Molina is in no way a starter. Posada's as much a need as he has been because Cashman has a bare cupboard.

Mo I could totally live without and give whoever a try. In fact if you take emotion away and you look at Francisco Cordero and Mariano Rivera both as free agents this year I much rather have Cordero. And I MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have K-Rod or Nathan next year. My problem is that if Mo goes I KNOW Joba's the closer. No way they plug Farnsworth, Veras, or Bruney in there. And they clearly don't even have enough faith in Britton, Ramirez, and Co to even give them shots as mop up men. They'll hit panic if they lose Mo and go Joba.

Pettitte is a much needed veteran presence in the rotation just because Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy is rather speculative. But he's old and likely to decline. And they could theoretically make a move for an ace or Johan himself. I'd live.

I just find it tough to imagine that they just decide "Oh, I wanted to be here but now that Joe's gone I don't." Really? The job was THAT uninviting? I mean, yeah, if the Yanks add a manager they HATE then that's different. If the Yanks shit on Torre on the way out there? I could see objection. But just if he's not there? Its certainly not impossible but it just seems like the other end of maturity.

EDIT: Apologies if that offended, Moose. I should have followed my earlier claim to stay away until I can take the Yankee Hating with the grain of salt and good humor I usually do.



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[Edited on 10-10-2007 by LuckyLopez]





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:57 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Yeah, that's some retardedly blind vision you got there, Moose.

Damn, Lucky! Hitting below the belt.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 08:58 PM Edit Post
Sounds like wishful thinking Dev. It's still all just specualtion. If I've learned something about athletes its that money talks. Once the Yankees decide who they want and offer contracts then you'll see who is really that bent out of shape by who is or isn't on the roster.





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posted on 10-10-2007 at 09:29 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by fsolomon75
Boras needs A-Rod to opt out in order to get the Sox, Mets, Cubs, Angels and Yanks in a bidding war to jack up the price.


But does that really work if, by opting out, Boras insures that nobody is bidding against the Yanks? I think opting out is a monumental enough "Fuck You" to the Yankees that they'd stick to their guns and only get involved in any "bidding war" after the price came back down to what they would have paid to have A-Rod honor his current contract and accept an extention.

And mark my words: the price? Will come back down to roughly that level. Boras can say "12 years, $500m" or "10 years, $400m," but he's the only one buying it. I'll eat one of my proverbial bugs if Alex Rodriguez opens the season next year signed to a non-Yankee contract past the year 2015 *and* worth more than $35 million per year for the duration. We've seen the model for how you rape franchises for large sums of money after you're 40, and his name is Roger Clemens. You do it year-by-year. Not by expecting GMs to grow a fresh Retard Lobe in their brains and sign you for 10 years when your 33.

That said, if Boras plays it smart, he only needs to make the Yankees bid against the Yankees. And the Yankees? Are tough hombres in the boardroom, as much as they are on the field. The Yankees just admit, "Hey, if you stay here and honor that contract, you get $27-plus million per year, which is relatively close to what you'd get on the free agent market. So you're happy. We're only paying two-thirds of that, because the Rangers are morons, so we're happy. And then, we can take this 3-years-worth of Rangers' money -- found money that no other team has to throw at you -- and put it towards an extention." Take that $20-something-million and call it a "signing bonus" on the extention, and then build the rest of a multi-year deal from there, at terms that are ammenable to both sides.

You play nice with the Yankees, and they can cut you a deal that'll dwarf pretty much any other teams. You play stupid, and A-Rod ends up starting next year with a 8-year contract worth $250m, playing for a team that might make the playoffs 4 of those years.

And if it's longevity that you want, the Yankees are probably the only team who'd go for an extention that takes you to 2017 or beyond (albeit, probably laden with lucrative Option Years that only vest with certain levels of performance; but then again, if A-Rod is everything Boras says he is, why should they be afraid of performance-based options?). Just because the Yankees can afford to sink that future cost in a desire to win over the next 5-6 years, and not many other teams can/will.

So:

Honor three remaining years at $81m-plus, and add an extention for 6 years at $210m (with a $20m signing bonus), and performance based team options that could add 3 more years and $120m, and know you'll be in the Playoffs most everu year? (Total: 12 years, $450 million possible on the table.)

Or tell the Yankees to fuck off, and hope against hope for a GM who'll offer 8 guaranteed years for around $250, with no promises of post-season play? I mean, christ, there are only 2 other $20 million players in baseball (and one of the is Jason F. Giambi, who not even Boras would dare to hold up as an example of a properly balanced marketplace), so who the fuck really thinks that A-Rod is the guy to just skip the $30-million plateau entirely and get a $40 million per year long term deal?

Be realistic, and I think there are good reason to play nice with the Yankees if you really do have your client's best interests in mind. Of course: as I said in the other thread, I'm convinced Boras has only HIS interests and his legacy in mind when he concoct ludicrous schemes like these, so.....



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posted on 10-11-2007 at 02:38 AM Edit Post
Other than to say I hope he opts out, I'll stay out of the whole A-Rod thing. I do want to say, Joba is staying in the pen. The only question mark with Mo re-signing is what Joba's role will be.
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posted on 10-11-2007 at 03:07 AM Edit Post
Hey! Just because your team has absolutely zero interest in fostering a starting rotation worth a damn doesn't mean every team feels that way. As of this moment the Yanks are still SAYING Joba's a SP. Here's hoping they're not as stupid as the Rangers might be.

I basically agree with Rick. Its a double edged sword. Boras wants to use the market but he also wants to have the Yankees on that market. Common sense says that the money they can offer in an extension is > than the money they can offer if he opts out. So by opting out he opens the door for more bidders and lowers the bid of the Yankees.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that Scott Boras isn't sitting at a desk RIGHT now with numbers from multiple teams. Who gives a fuck about tampering? In this day and age how in the fuck could Artie Moreno NOT let Scott Boras know that he'd be willing to pay X amount for Y years with Z perks? Send a text from someone in the Angel's mailroom to someone in Scott's mailroom. Sign it "AM from Disney". Boras has to know the basic sort of deals that are awaiting A-Rod before he makes the decision to opt out. Just as JD Drew almost certainly knew there was a better offer available to him before he opted out of his Dodger deal.

So I really think there's 2 basic X factors involved. (1) Whether A-Rod WANTS to stay in NY or wants to open the door to go somewhere else. And (2) whether the Yankees are going to offer him a comparable/better deal than someone else. If the answer is Yes to both then it really makes no sense of A-Rod to opt out. Not from his POV. And while Boras is Boras A-Rod's still the client and it wouldn't be the first time an A-Rod client didn't do it Boras' way. Its just a matter of answering those questions that only A-Rod and the Yanks know.

Organizational meetings on Friday. I expect Monday and next week may be big in Yankee land.

[Edited on 10-11-2007 by LuckyLopez]





He smiled.

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