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Author: Subject: Israel invades Lebanon
loki
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posted on 7-18-2006 at 05:01 PM Edit Post
Initial quote:
quote:

and if we don't support their right to steal land from Palestine


Response:
quote:
I am so sick and fuckin tired of this battered old piece of crap. How dare you? Living in the USA, who's land belong to Indians who were slaughtered, raped and persecuted. A land who was built by slavery. All this, not by people who survived a holocaust. but by "world explorers" who found a piece of land to settle in. "Hey, here's some land. Let's take it and kill of them injuns while we're at it". Israel was founded as a shelter for the Jews. America was founded as a new back yard for Europe, so give me a freakin' break with the whole "steal from Palestinians" crap.


Just ‘cause it is a statement that has been tossed out there doesn’t mean there isn’t any truth behind it. Your USA/Indian response is true, but doesn’t have a bearing on this particular point. While the founding of Israel was an understandable “Never Again” response to the horrors of WWII, it doesn’t change the fact that they usurped Palestine to do it. Granted, unlike other groups that overthrow countries the Israelis didn’t do a wholesale slaughter/enslavement of the former inhabitants, but the end result was that Palestine was no more and the Palestinians were a people without a homeland.

Before I go any further, let me clarify: I’m not trying to instigate anyone here. I get that this is a highly emotional situation, especially for people with a personal stake like Y2G, so I’m trying my level best to keep this factual (or at least factual as I see them) and without emotion.

Like it or not, this is a legit reason that bothers a lot of people. It is also one of the reasons that Palestinians and the PLO are sometime seen as victims instead of villains in this whole mess. In America we are used to the pro-Israel spin, but it is only all too easy to portray much of the PLO behavior as “Freedom Fighters who have had their country stolen fighting to take back their land”. From what I’ve seen, this is the overriding view of the Israel-Palestine conflict as seen through European eyes, which helps explain why most of Europe seems to back the Palestinians and come down on the Israelis.


Now for a whole different subset of this topic:

I was listening to a radio interview with one of the Israeli diplomats based out of DC yesterday on the topic BBMN brought up. Some things to keep in mind:

1) Before Israel carpet bombs an area they drop zillions of fliers letting the population know to get out because the place will be bombed shortly.
2) Southern Lebanon is getting pounded. Southern Lebanon is also a place where Beirut has next to no power. Hezbollah operates freely in Southern Lebanon, because Beirut is either unwilling or unable to clamp down (From everything I’ve read, it is a combination of both. The government of Lebanon just came out of a nasty civil war, and they do not have the time, resources or desire to rid southern Lebanon of the Hezbollah problem. In addition, there are fears that attempting to do so will start the civil war up again). One of Hezbollah’s M.O.s is to hide the missiles and missile launchers in civilian buildings. There is no “Hezbollah HQ” for Israel to wipe out. If they want to neuter Hezbollah and destroy their ability to attack they need to go after the Hezbollah weapons, which are in civilian areas. People can get out, but the time window makes it difficult, if not impossible, for Hezbollah to remove the heavy weapons.
3) Hezbollah and the PLO started this latest round with the kidnappings. This was a test for the new Israeli PM to see just how far they could push him and what they could get. No one expected a response like this. Yes, short term - Israel’s response will upset some countries. But long term – no one will think to try this tactic again. Or, at least, they’ll think long and hard about doing this again. Israel is willing to face public condemnation for their actions if it keeps their enemies from attacking again / wiping out said enemies.

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Krydor
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posted on 7-18-2006 at 05:41 PM Edit Post
Originally posted by ModSquad

That was some trollin'. take it down a notch. Y2G isn't losing his temper, and he's the only person here who can get away with it. until he does, no one has any right to.


I've got to wait for a guy from the people who gave us Job to lose his temper?

[edit below]

While the founding of Israel was an understandable “Never Again” response to the horrors of WWII, it doesn’t change the fact that they usurped Palestine to do it.

Time for a quick history lesson. "Palestine" never existed. The area under question was cut from the old Ottoman Empire. TransJordan, Syria & Egypt. With me so far? Good.

The day the UN decided to split up the area into two new autonomous regions, Israel declared statehood. Still hanging on?

The next day, the new state of Israel was invaded by 3 countries. None of the 3 countries wanted anything but to reclaim their land. Those 3 countries were beaten. There was never any talk about Palestine or whatever until the mid 60's. None of the big 3 supported the formation of either state.


Granted, unlike other groups that overthrow countries the Israelis didn’t do a wholesale slaughter/enslavement of the former inhabitants, but the end result was that Palestine was no more and the Palestinians were a people without a homeland.


Palestine never was. Say it out loud. This is a key point that people should understand. I'll have to get a map of the pre-Israel middle east and the current borders.

[Edited on 7-18-2006 by Krydor]






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Y2G
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posted on 7-18-2006 at 05:51 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by loki
Your USA/Indian response is true, but doesn’t have a bearing on this particular point.


I'll try to keep it short

Of course it does. I have had this debate with many people, all of whom has thrown this "relevancy" argument at me. I only have a question to ask:

Why is it that the issue of "stolen" land is so hot when it comes to Israel? why aren't people still busy trying to get the Indian's lands back?

I'll tell you a little secret: "It's because 200 years have passed and no one gives a damn anymore".

The US of A never did, and most probably will never take any step towards giving the Indians their land back.

On the flip side, Israel has alreday pulled out of Gazza (and this is after "only" 30 years). Israel (via Olmert) is planning an additional pull out of the west bank. Israel has been actively seeking a partner to talk to, and was repeatedly either turned down, or met with a heated Intifada.

So, do I understand the PLO? Yes. Do I sympathize with the Palestinian people? Yes.

That does not mean that I am willing to pack my bags and go anywhere, so their problems will disapear. Because:

a. I also have a problem (which the "liberals" don't give a crap about).
and
b. Half of their problems are caused by their insistance to invest all resources in terrorism instead of building a healthy society.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying Israel has no part in it. we sure do, and I am one of these people who are voting consistently in favour of anyone who is commited to solve this conflict in peaceful ways. There are a bunch of things Israel can do better, but in this case, I support the government's current stand.





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 03:13 AM Edit Post
Ohh, getting a bit touchy eh Jeb? Of course, when it comes to your country (and by that, I mean any country related to by the speaker), it always is (as in my case).

But to your points:

Points 1-4: What's your point? is it Ok to steal land when there are little over 2 million natives around? Is it Ok to slaughter them and steal their land? Is there a quota for this sorta thing?
Point 5: according to the data I have, there are about 3.6 Million Palestinians in Gazza and the west bank. In Israel, there are just over 6 million. How exactly do the Palestinians outnumber Israelies?...
Point 6: Again, What's your point? that if the natives are of this or that religion, is it ok to steal their land? I'm trying man...

And here is where you completely miss my point:

quote:
Attributing peace in the United States to the interval of 200 years allows you to argue that all Israel has to do is decide on a course and then follow it for a long long time, which conveniently omits discussing whether the course is actually right, because evidently duration is all that matters.


That, my friend, was cynicism at it's peak... What I was saying there was "the reason Israel is under so much "liberal" fire, is because we only "stole" the land about 30~60 years ago". It goes to show, not that I expect to hang on to anything. It goes to show the hypocricy of said "liberals".

I will discuss, in details, the "right Vs wrong" in an appropriate thread, and you might even be surprised. but by no means, is the "theft" of land in America different in it's right-or-wrong-ness, than the "theft" of land in the middle east.

quote:
The fact is that no one can say what would happen if the Native American population approached parity with the rest of the U.S. population, nor can we say what those 2 million people would do if the U.S. was the size of a New England state where the concentrated population of 2 million could control large areas of land and terrorize the remainder.


So what you're saying is that, if the Palestinians were, say, 1500 people, and unable to strike back, would THAT be ok? You see, I don't CARE how many Indians there were, or how many Palestinians there were. It doesn't make it more or less right or wrong.

My Argument is not lazy. It is based on very simple logic, and I just defended it.





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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loki
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 12:51 PM Edit Post
Damn you, Krydor....

Now I know how those people who honestly believed the world was flat felt when they discovered that, no, the Earth is, in fact, a roundish sort of shape, sort of like a slightly deflated basketball.

For years I've operated under the "truth" that Palestine was a state that Israel usurped. Don't remember where I read it, but that has been a basic foundation stone of my knowledge of the Israeli-Arab war. Thanks for the, ah.... correction.

Edit to add:

A map of the British Mandate of Palestine from 1920 can be found here.

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by loki]

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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 12:56 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by loki
For years I've operated under the "truth" that Palestine was a state that Israel usurped. Don't remember where I read it, but that has been a basic foundation stone of my knowledge of the Israeli-Arab war. Thanks for the, ah.... correction.


I hope you're being sarcastic here...

There was, indeed, never a palestinian state. There was an Otoman colony, there was a British Mandate, but no Palestinian state.

Hopefully, sometime in our generation, there will be one. A state, that will peacefully live alongside, the very existant state of Israel.





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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loki
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 02:10 PM Edit Post
Nope. I was being 100% honest. And I appreciated the correction from Krydor. If I'm wrong (espeically in cases like this) I want someone to let me know I'm wrong. How else is a person going to learn, otherwise?

This doesn't change my overall world view of the Israeli-Arab conflict, but it forces me to rethink certain things, and definitely calls for more research into the whole founding of Israel. I spent an hour bouncing back and forth between websites and still don't feel as if I have anything near a complete picture as to the history before the 1940s.

I still have a number of questions. Such as - was there or was there not a Palestine? It did not exist as a state, per se, but there was an area called Palestine, with people who were born, grew up and died. What about the people who lived in that area who were not Jewish? Those people and their modern day descendants? Israel took 26% of the Mandated Area from 1920, with Egypt, Syria and Jordan taking the rest. Why doesn't the PLO demand the remaining 74% of land back from those three nations? Or is it that Israel is a much easier target? More questions (right now) than answers.

Except for the "Palestine was not a state" issue, my understanding of what happened in the area (wars and such) still seems accurate. It is the whys that I need to re-evaluate.

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by loki]

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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 02:31 PM Edit Post
Regardless of whether Palestine was a recognized state, hundreds of thousands of them were pushed out of their homes, and now live in refugee camps... no?

Another thing I heard for the first time yesterday, is that Israel recognizes itself as an occupier, and hence is supposed to make sure that the Palestinians have access to basic essentials, like water. But they don't. No?

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by benoitbrokemyneck]





Keepin' it German

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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 03:02 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by benoitbrokemyneck
Regardless of whether Palestine was a recognized state, hundreds of thousands of them were pushed out of their homes, and now live in refugee camps... no?


Yes. and No.

Some live in camps. Others in cities. Others in luxurious villas. You can sort of draw it as - the "normal" civilian lives either in a camp, a vilage or a very poor part of a city. A person closer to the very enlightened and democratic ragime, will live more comfortably, and so on and so forth.
Talks about refugee camps is good and dandy, but not a single "liberal" has yet to say anything about the enormous amount of money, that the Palestinian got and get from Europe, the US, The arab nations and even from Israel. Where the fuck is this money? Where are the housing projects? where are the schools and hospitals?

I guess it's easy to blame Israel for everything, when you shake the responsibility of yourself.

Especially, when you know, that the enlightened liberals of the west, will be by your side, ignoring this too.

quote:
Another thing I heard for the first time yesterday, is that Israel recognizes itself as an occupier, and hence is supposed to make sure that the Palestinians have access to basic essentials, like water. But they don't. No?

What the hell are you talking about BBMN? They get fucking water and they get fucking electricity from US. They try to destroy the very power station in Ashkelon, that provides THEM electricity.

How far will the audacity continue? jesus. That is one bunch of unbased crap.





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Krydor
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 03:03 PM Edit Post
This post is now irrelevant! Damn you people and your posting while I'm writing!


[another edit!]

Loki,

Don't get too caught up in the name "Palestine". Up until the partition, the region was known as Palestine. That region was intended to be a Jewish homeland. A link becomes relevant!

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Krydor]






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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 03:36 PM Edit Post
quote:
Especially, when you know, that the enlightened liberals of the west, will be by your side, ignoring this too.


Oh, I have a side now. Thanks. And to think I came here to ask for questions to be answered, and ended up with a side to be on. Whaa?

quote:

What the hell are you talking about BBMN?


Well I was listening to this thing called a radio. And there was a guy's voice on it, saying that this was the case. So I took a mental note to ask others about his claim. That is what I'm talking about.

quote:
How far will the audacity continue? jesus. That is one bunch of unbased crap.


What did you do to our Y2J?! I want the old one back, Krydor. You seem to have taken my questions as something besides inquires for some reason... so much for civility and rational discussion in the CE. Fuck this. I've never seen you go this route that I can remember... take a deep breath, I'm just asking questions, and you are giving answers... okay?

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Operation Retard
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 03:59 PM Edit Post
well, BBMN, while it may or may not have been intentional, you did phrase your "questions" as fact and accusations.

like i said, that may not have been intention, but it's certainly how it came off.






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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 04:09 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by benoitbrokemyneck
quote:
take a deep breath, I'm just asking questions, and you are giving answers... okay?


1...2...3...

Ok.

I guess, that because you followed your questions with a ", No?", it seems like a challenge... I mean, when you ask "Does Israel provide water to the Palestinians?" and when you say "But they don't, No?", it suggest that you have an opinion and a side. Nevermind.

Now I got to go and smoke. too much healthy deep breathing





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Krydor
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 04:16 PM Edit Post
What did you do to our Y2J?! I want the old one back, Krydor. You seem to have taken my questions as something besides inquires for some reason... so much for civility and rational discussion in the CE. Fuck this. I've never seen you go this route that I can remember... take a deep breath, I'm just asking questions, and you are giving answers... okay?

Y2G has discovered what I figured out a long time ago. You don't actually want answers to the questions you ask. You want reinforcement of preconceptions. Generally, I find that a visit to the library might actually answer some of your questions, yet you find it somehow better to ask people on a wrestling forum.

Usually, it's something like this:

quote:

You: Isn't it true that (insert over the top loaded question)?

Respondent: No, that's utterly false. Where the hell did you get that crap from?

You: Why so defensive? It's just me asking a simple question!


You phrase the questions in a ham handed manner. You ask the questions in a style that resembles "when did you stop beating your wife?" You then pretend to be all hurt and whatnot when you are rebuked in no uncertain terms.

The best part is the misdirection. After being shown to be wrong, off topic you go. Then, the teeth pulling begins for open admission of the error. It's almost like you read a manual on how not to argue anything effectively, ever.

This marks the second time that you've implied that I have somehow subverted a Jewish member of this forum to my own nefarious purpose. Last time it was Fsolomon, this time it's Y2G. I'm not sure who should be more offended, me or Y2G.






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mr_mysterious2
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 04:55 PM Edit Post
Wow Krydor, you're really being an asshole on this one.

So, despite the persecution of the Jews since they first marched out of Egypt and continues to this day it's somehow the western meddling that empowers the hatred. Who was meddling from the 18th-20th centuries to empower the Jew Hatred? What a goddamn Chomsky-esque pile of shit... BTW, radical/fundamentalist Islam was around way before the USA was a country.

I'm not saying that the West created anti-semitism, I'm saying their meddling has empowered it from Britain's ill-conceived map drawing to the US and the USSR's Cold War meddling, to America acting like they own all the resources in the region since the Cold War ended. The result has been a backlash and conflicts between powers with varying degrees of arms supplied by the imperial powers.

"Supposedly"? The kidnappings did start this round, the key difference is that Israel did not negotiate for the release of their people. Those wily Jews makin' stuff up, are they? God damn it.

Fuck you, I'm not saying anything about Jews. I'm saying that Israel arrested Hamas cabinet members illegally and Hamas and Hezbollah responded with the kidnappings. I'm even saying that Hezbolla was being disingenuous by connecting the events, nevertheless, the kidnappings didn't happen in a vacuum, they were a response to something, and characterisation of the kidnappings being the action that precipitated this escalation is misleading, just like it would be misleading to say that Israel's illegal arrests happened without reason. Both actions are worthy of criticism and both actions have led to the increase in hostilities.

Wow, you are seriously deranged. That's like blaming GHWB for Tienanamen Square.

I know you find it impossible to consider that Bush's reckless actions in the Middle East could have any ripple effects other than the domino effect of glorious democracy and freedom. Go back and read news reports and statements by the Mullah's at the time. They directly connected their crackdown on student protestors to the threat that the US imposed... and don't ask me for a link... do your own research asshole

An opponent of radical Islam? You? That's a laugh. Your entire post is rife with apologia and a very large "J0000005 and Chimpy McHitlerBushburton are the real enemies" feel to it.

The only reasonable response to this statement is go fuck yourself.

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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 05:05 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Y2G
I guess, that because you followed your questions with a ", No?", it seems like a challenge... I mean, when you ask "Does Israel provide water to the Palestinians?" and when you say "But they don't, No?", it suggest that you have an opinion and a side. Nevermind....


Sorry if my questions came out as challenges... they were genuine questions. Glad you understand now.

quote:
Originally posted by Krydor
Y2G has discovered what I figured out a long time ago.


Really? You might want to tell him that as he didn't mention any of that. Applying intentions behind my questions is one thing, but claiming to know how another perceives said questions is just ... just wow.

quote:
You don't actually want answers to the questions you ask. You want reinforcement of preconceptions.


No so much, but thanks for showing up and beating that dead horse one more time. You never get old, no really I mean that.

quote:
Generally, I find that a visit to the library might actually answer some of your questions, yet you find it somehow better to ask people on a wrestling forum.


Tell me Krydor, when was I supposed to make it to the library yesterday or today? You seem to know my schedule somehow, so can you please tell me WHY I didn't go to the library? I can't wait to be told why I didn't do something, much like I'm told what my motives are, and much like you tell me what Y2J thinks.

quote:
The best part is the misdirection. After being shown to be wrong, off topic you go. Then, the teeth pulling begins for open admission of the error. It's almost like you read a manual on how not to argue anything effectively, ever.


And for some reason you still think that I was arguing in the Chomsky thread. If our soldiers had skulls as thick as yours, we would be invincible. Glad to see you're still dwelling on that thread.

quote:
This marks the second time that you've implied that I have somehow subverted a Jewish member of this forum to my own nefarious purpose. Last time it was Fsolomon, this time it's Y2G. I'm not sure who should be more offended, me or Y2G.


Well you were the one telling me what Y2J thinks, despite it not being what he had said a post before. That's your deal to put motives, and now even thoughts, into others' minds. I came to a great realization of my own actually two weeks ago while watching X3; Krydor = Magneto. No seriously, think about it.

back on topic

So, some of the Palestinians live nicely, some don't. Got it. But weren't they literally forced out of their neighborhoods when Israel was formed? (Honestly I have never heard anyone say this is not the case) Its just a simple yes/no question as far as I know, but again, I ain't no expert on the history of the region, hence I'm here asking questions.

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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 05:17 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by mr_mysterious2
I'm saying that Israel arrested Hamas cabinet members illegally and Hamas and Hezbollah responded with the kidnappings.


You know, since I have been sleep deprived by my 2 year old daughter, I am not a 100% sure, but I am almost ready to swear that these "members of cabinet" were arrested After Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

I have done a couple of searches, that seem to confirm this, but whatever...

It really doesn't matter to some people, that there was absolutely no provocation to Huzballa from Israel's side. On the contrary. Since we left Lebanon, to the international and UN embraced borders, this organization was doing everything humanly and inhumanly possible to try and drag us to war. Sharon (Your big oppressor) and Barak before him, retaliated in the most moderate of ways, if at all. This made it clear for Nassralla, that Israel has weakened, and that it's ok to break all the rules.

And the cherry on the top? Even when they come looking for troubles, they still have people in the west standing around and finding a handle on this, that will allow them to understand the Huzballa. Because we are "liberal", and not bloodthirsty Israelies, that is.

I'm sorry, but it is clear beyong a shadow of a doubt, who instigated here. and this time, it wasn't the little devil.

Edit (To reply to BBMN):

quote:
So, some of the Palestinians live nicely, some don't. Got it. But weren't they literally forced out of their neighborhoods when Israel was formed? (Honestly I have never heard anyone say this is not the case) Its just a simple yes/no question as far as I know, but again, I ain't no expert on the history of the region, hence I'm here asking questions.

The answer is a Yes and a No.

There were people who were pushed out of their homes. Yes. This is something that I have said before and will say again, I cannot make look good. simply because it is not.
The country was founded in war. The two groups of people who lived in that place did not get along, to understate it a bit. There was always friction, that in 1948 culminated (I hope I'm using the right word) into an all out war between the newly born Israel, and the Arab countries around it. During that war, there were indeed cases, were people were displaced/dispossesed/name it as you will.

The "No" part refers to the fact that there are many and huge Arab countries all around Israel. It is then, very convenient to anyone there, to claim that he was born in "Palestine".

There are many angles to this, which we might have to open a separate thread for. I'd just like to mention one or two:

The first is, that while displacement of people is always wrong, never good and difficult to discuss. But there was a real problem at that time, not imperialistic. There was a group of people who needed a place to live in. The place was Israel/Palestine. The reasons vary from biblical to practical, but the bottom line was that the UN has given this land to Israel.

These two groups cannot live WITH each other. it's been proven over and over again through history. I hope we will be able to live NEXT to each other some day.

...To be continued...work...stuff...

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Y2G]





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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fsolomon75
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 06:03 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Krydor
Last time it was Fsolomon, this time it's Y2G. I'm not sure who should be more offended, me or Y2G.
I microplay. Whatever my Canadian master says.

I don't know how I was brought into this discussion either time, but my feelings on this are pretty well-known. If you get kicked in the balls time after time, eventually you kick back. Do I like seeing all this violence? Of course not. Do I understand why Israel is defending herself? Yup and I completely support it. You can't reason with those who want you dead. A simple peace treaty isn't going to change the mindset of let's wipe Israel off the map... so while I personally try to avoid any kind of conflict in my life, I understand there finally comes a time when force is needed.





Teh wisdom of MooseheadJack: "tpyos are not going to ruin my day today" and "the only thing carved in stone for the Mets is the look on willie's face"

The 2007 Post Of The Year

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mr_mysterious2
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 06:07 PM Edit Post
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00253.htm

Of note:
quote:
The media have emphasised the capture of the Israeli soldier as key in escalating tensions. On June 29, Stephen Farrell reported in The Times "a dramatic escalation of the conflict sparked by the abduction". (Farrell, 'Tanks go into Gaza as Jewish settler is murdered,' The Times, June 29, 2006)

On June 30, the Financial Times reported "the rapid escalation of the crisis sparked by last Sunday's kidnap" (Ferry Biedermann and Roula Khalaf, 'Abbas appeals to UN over arrests,' Financial Times, June 30, 2006). The BBC described the Palestinian attack as "a major escalation in cross-border tensions". (BBC World News, June 25, 2006)

Few readers will be aware that on June 24, the day before the "kidnapping", Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip and captured two Palestinians claimed by Israel to be members of Hamas. (See our Guest Media Alert by Jonathan Cook, 'Kidnapped by Israel'; http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php)

Nor have the press suggested that the one-sided nature of the killing in the weeks leading up to the capture of the Israeli soldier might have "sparked" Palestinian actions.

On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three others. On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach. Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.

On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a busy Gaza City street, killing 11 people, including two children and two medics. On June 20, the Israeli army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15 others in Gaza with a missile attack. On June 21, the Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children. Then came the Israeli capture of two Palestinians, followed by the Palestinian capture of the Israeli soldier and the killing of the two other soldiers.

After the beach deaths, Hamas, the ruling party in the Palestinian Authority, broke an 18-month ceasefire and joined other militant groups in firing Kassam rockets into Israel. The Financial Times reported on June 23 that the missiles, principally targeted towards the Israel town of Sderot, have caused damage and some casualties but no fatalities in the recent barrages. A June 29 Guardian leader noted that the home-made Kassam rockets are "not in the same league as Israel's hi-tech (though not always accurate) weaponry". (Leader, 'Storm over Gaza,' The Guardian, June 29, 2006)



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GoVols
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 06:07 PM Edit Post
I've been keeping up with the thread. Very good. As it seems like there's a lot of questions of history, I found this http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm page to be very informative. It seems to be very objective. Just thought I'd throw that in here.






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Krydor
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 06:09 PM Edit Post
Originally posted by mr_mysterious2
Wow Krydor, you're really being an asshole on this one.


Yes, yes I am. Completely and unconditionally because I am sick and tired of the double standard being applied.


I'm not saying that the West created anti-semitism, I'm saying their meddling has empowered it from Britain's ill-conceived map drawing to the US and the USSR's Cold War meddling, to America acting like they own all the resources in the region since the Cold War ended.


Britain's ill conceived map drawing has little to do with this. None of the proposals were effectively implemented. The Brits (post WW I) actually banned the sale of land to Jews in Palestine. The Jewish homeland was created by the UN, after the Brits said "fuck it".

And yes, the anti-Semitism was doing quite nicely prior to US involvement in the region. Once again, that's something I suggest you look into.


The result has been a backlash and conflicts between powers with varying degrees of arms supplied by the imperial powers.


The Imperial Powers? Set the wayback machine to 1935, Sherman. I'm not even sure what this means within the current discussion. The main supplier of Arms to Hezbollah & Hamas is Iran. Prior to that, it was the Soviet Union funding the Shiite Jihadis. The only steadfast supporter of Israel has been the USA. Which of these are the imperial powers of which you speak? What does the phrase actually mean, and not what it means to you?


Fuck you, I'm not saying anything about Jews. I'm saying that Israel arrested Hamas cabinet members illegally and Hamas and Hezbollah responded with the kidnappings.


Really? The implications of the above are far reaching. First one being that Hamas and Hezbollah both work for Iran. That means Iran has committed an act of war against Israel.



Both actions are worthy of criticism and both actions have led to the increase in hostilities.


The starting point of this round revolves around an elected government comitted to driving the Israelis into the sea and launching missiles into Israel. This is after the exiting of Gaza, of course. The true nature of the enemy reveals itself and somehow you manage to spew out this equivocating nonsense.

As I mentioned earlier, the hand wringing begins when Israel defends itself.


I know you find it impossible to consider that Bush's reckless actions in the Middle East ... ...They directly connected their crackdown on student protestors to the threat that the US imposed... and don't ask me for a link... do your own research asshole


Yes, because the Mullahs were all like "you know what we should do? Stop being a bunch of terrorist enabling, population repressing, IAEA deceiving bastards! Free speech for all! Huzzah!"

Then, George Bush was all like "you dudes should stop funding terrorists and attempting to build nukes. Perhaps it would be nice if you would recognize the right of Israel to exist, or something."

Iran was all "You know we love you students and are all for reforms, but we have to beat the shit out of you. Bush made us do it."

Dictators rarely give up power voluntarily. That's lesson number one. Learn it well. You swallowed propaganda from a dictatorship, hook like and sinker. If only it wasn't for Chimpy! Then the Iranians would be free and stuff. God, your worldview is simplistic.

I have done the research, my esteemed colleague and wonderful countryman. This is how I know you are woefully uniformed and absolutely full of human fecal matter you are when reading your analysis of the current situation. Your pathetic screeds could have been written 50 years ago by a well paid communist apparatchik, with a quick change of certain nouns, of course.



The only reasonable response to this statement is go fuck yourself.


Yes, yes indeed. It's nice of you to think I am that well hung and that limber. However, I think such an action may permanently damage my man parts. If I were able, I could make millions doing such a thing. I wonder if that would be considered "gay"? Hmmm...

[edit for BBMN]

So, three posts prior to mine that have a similar gist regarding analysis of how you go about asking "questions" and you save your lameassery for me? Nice.

By the by, I have no idea how one would find a library or a bookstore in your part of the world. Nor do I have much of a clue what your schedule might be. What I do know is that you've have plenty of time over the past few years to potentially educate yourself on this topic.

You always post the same canards regarding Israel. You seemingly find it odd that individuals with whom I would generally disagree with and vice versa would find common ground on the singular issue of Israel's right to exist.

That's what this debate amounts to, when all the bullshit is removed. Either they can vigorously defend themselves, like every other nation, or they cannot.

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Krydor]






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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 07:30 PM Edit Post
quote:

The only reasonable response to this statement is go fuck yourself.


Yes, yes indeed. It's nice of you to think I am that well hung and that limber. However, I think such an action may permanently damage my man parts. If I were able, I could make millions doing such a thing. I wonder if that would be considered "gay"? Hmmm...


Now that was pretty funny. And no, it wouldn't make you gay... just gross.

quote:

...and you save your lameassery for me? Nice.


I'm sorry for in anyway derailing this thread, but when I read Y2J's initial reply to my inquiry, it read just like one of your posts... hence the joke about you. If you really think that I was saying "Krydor is converting the Jews to his ideology again" then you really are thick. Besides, Y2J is too smart from what I gather to be influenced by Magneto.

quote:
By the by, I have no idea how one would find a library or a bookstore in your part of the world. Nor do I have much of a clue what your schedule might be. What I do know is that you've have plenty of time over the past few years to potentially educate yourself on this topic.


Hmmm. So let me get this straight. If there is an issue that I have only passing interest in in 2002, I should read up on it at the library, because perhaps 4 years later I will possibly have more then passing interest in it? Okay. Right on, man. Now say I didn't have the foresight to know that one day I would want to know whether a claim I heard on a radio program was in fact true, and I didn't have much time to look into, plus didn't I didn't want to sift through books finding the simple answer to a simple question, what might I do to figure out if said claims were true? Hmmmm, maybe I could go to a message board that is populated with people that have intimate knowledge about the subject due to their heritage. I wonder where such a place exists...

quote:
You always post the same canards regarding Israel.


Elaborate please.

quote:
You seemingly find it odd that individuals with whom I would generally disagree with and vice versa would find common ground on the singular issue of Israel's right to exist.


No. Not at all. I just was pointing out how radically uncharacteristic Y2J's reply was, to such a degree that it rang out like some shit you'd post. That is all. If you think that I believe you have had any impact in Y2J's stance then.... ahh its a fucking broken record, you know the rest.

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Y2G
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 07:45 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by mr_mysterious2
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00253.htm



Nice title there. Victims. That's exactly my point.

Victims - anyone who suffers. EXCEPT - Israelies.

I was trying to say before, and hopefully now it will be clearer, that I have sympathy for casualties on both sides of this conflict. a dead person is a dead person.

But what pisses me off, is the way that the dead Israelies are always discounted as either "they got what they deserved, for being an opressor", or better yet, completely ignored.

I have watched CNN for the better part of the last 24 hours, and while I might have missed that 2 second segment, ALL they talk about is how Beirut is under fire, and how difficult life is for Lebanease. All the colour segments from "inside the battle zone". the "hero reporter" talking to you from ground zero, where Israeli planes are expected any minute.
I have to wonder, when will they go to Haifa, Naharya, Tzfat and other northern Israeli places and do these things there? My guess, not any time soon.

You see, I concluded my previous reply to you with a "whatever" because it really does not matter, kidnapped first, after, during. The FACT is - Israel has done NOTHING to the Huzballa or to Lebanon. Thier alleged "retaliation" was in return for absolutely no action by Israel.

Don't tell me that they are identifying with their Palestinian brothers in Gazza either, cause Israel can "Identify" with any number of people worldwide, and attack Iran (which would be more warranted than the Huzballa attack, as Iran actually take steps to destroy us).

Edit: Spelling/grammer stuff

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Y2G]





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Krydor
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 08:12 PM Edit Post
No. Not at all. I just was pointing out how radically uncharacteristic Y2J's reply was, to such a degree that it rang out like some shit you'd post.

I'm having a hard time putting a decent response to this, because it's been covered ad infinitum in other discussions we've had.

You ask loaded questions and plead ignorance when people get pissed. You do this all the time. Whenever there is point made by whomever about whatever that flies in the face of your preconceptions, you quickly change the subject to avoid acknowledgement of the point.

You were all hurt that Y2G would attack you for asking your "question", yet had a hell of a time admitting that the very nature of the question was flawed and requires a retraction of some sort.






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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 7-19-2006 at 08:37 PM Edit Post
You were all hurt that Y2G would attack you for asking your "question", yet had a hell of a time admitting that the very nature of the question was flawed and requires a retraction of some sort.

What the fuck are you talking about? The only thing that was wrong with my question was that I put a "No?" on the end. I have no clue what 'nature of the question' you are fucking talking about. I had a fucking question. I asked it. There was a misconception by Y2G, and we worked past it. He posted an answer. (thanks btw) I have no clue what you are talking about at this point. I didn't retract shit, and nothing about my question had any element to it other then being questiony. And I like how you keep insisting that I post loaded questions, and never admit when I'm wrong... as if to say my questions are my views (because GOD FUCKING FORDBID I ACTUALLY ASK A FUCKING GOD DAMN QUESTION ABOUT ANYTHING EVER WHILE BEING GENUINELY CURIOUS), and also that if you simply repeat it enough it becomes true. All you are getting at is the fucking Chomsky thread and you know it. It just eats you up I guess that I honestly wanted an unbiased look at his facts, and all you wanted to do was call names. GET OVER IT, YOU FUCK. The only reason you came back to it this time is because you were dead wrong about Y2G and his take (and lack there of) on me and lack the balls to admit it, let alone apologize to either of us. FUCK OFF, MONKEY.

[Edited:

You always post the same canards regarding Israel.

I'm still waiting... or you can just keeping harping on that dead as fuck horse that was the Chomsky thread.

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by benoitbrokemyneck]

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