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Author: Subject: Fisk, Pilger, Chomsky, Said, Goodman, Klein, etc
mr_mysterious2
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posted on 6-7-2006 at 09:29 PM Edit Post
Fisk, Pilger, Chomsky, Said, Goodman, Klein, etc

Figure I might as well start a new thread for discussion of one of the tangents in the thread about American soldiers and alleged massacres.

What do you guys think about the leftists who typically criticise the US for having imperialist economic policies maintained by militarism?

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posted on 6-7-2006 at 10:31 PM Edit Post
I agree with them.

The problem seems to be that the extreme left wants to take their views as the truth, and the extreme right denounce everything they say as a complete lie and counter from their own, also biased, views from the far right.

It seems like no one wants to stop and consider that the truth lies somewhere in between





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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 6-7-2006 at 11:46 PM Edit Post
Chomsky shakes his head at the notion he is a 'leftist'. Ever listen to him talk about Clinton? His non-partisan stance has gotten him labeled an ancharists by those unable to grasp critical thinking.

As for Frisk, I don't know much about him. But once in awhile I read a column by him and he seems to make very logical and accurate points. In other words, I Microplay.

Every time I read anything by Thom Hartman I find myself agreeing 99% of the time. Thom rules.

I would probably read more from the right side, if only I actually knew of people on the right with more facts and less stupidity then Rush and Coulter. My main problem is I only like reading here and there... perfect for web articles, but not books. If you know of some good 'small' readings from inteligent folks on the right, gimme some links.

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mr_mysterious2
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posted on 6-8-2006 at 12:15 AM Edit Post
Yeah, the term leftist is problematic at best. In regards to Clinton though, most people outside of the US always considered him right of center.
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Y2G
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posted on 6-8-2006 at 03:30 AM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by mr_mysterious2
Yeah, the term leftist is problematic at best.


Yes, as in Leftists were always the ones that you know, objected terrorism... those who are always preaching a peacefull solution to everything...

Chomsky and his buddy Pappe, are indeed "misunderstood geniuses". All of us brainwashed stupid people who don't understand them, are just unable to grasp their critical thinking.

Sorry, but I can't really appreciate people who look at things in a single minded one sided way (Like chomsky and Pappe).

The west is always teh evil, who through every possible mean, make the lives of the poor arabs miserable.

It is not their tyrantific dictators, their self slaughtering militias, their unwillingness to promote human rights, that is responsible for their state (and mind you, I am brutaly generalizing here. I know that this is not true to all arab nations). it is the big devil - USA and the little devil - Israel (home of Chomsky and Pappe).

If critical thinking is constant self beating, with no regard to the other party's responsibility, then yes, Chomsky is a genius.





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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 6-8-2006 at 12:51 PM Edit Post
Y2J

Hey, if you can, rent this; Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media


I've read a bit of Chomsky over the years, and I have found some people that challenge his facts (mind you they challenge about 1% of what he says) but I'm not sure where the 'blame America' sentiment you speak of is. Perhaps you could put a link up to the piece you're talking about?

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Krydor
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posted on 6-18-2006 at 05:30 AM Edit Post
For Mr. M: Fisk Thing

I'd imagine this is of some interest to others beside Mr. M, so here we go. Please pardon me for the lateness of this thing, and the haphazard way this will go together. A combination of computer errors and vehicular problems has led me to a new heater core and a Dell, which arrives in 6 to 8 business days.

The title of the page, linked here, has two ways of being interpreted. "Did The US Murder Journalists?", well no. If one were to read the article, that would be the answer based on the evidence provided. However, based on the intended audience, the question is a rhetorical one. Those of the reality based commuinity know the answer is "yes".

To be fair, Fisk titles the article "Closing Down the Press", with "Did The US Murder Journalists" as a subtitle. The bias, however, is evident. The reader is intented to be drawn by the implications and inferences by Fisk into agreeing with his conclusion. Once again, I have to point out that no concrete evidence is provided to even make the question worthy of asking. That isn't the point, though.

If I were to write, using similar prose, that Robert Fisk both smuggled in and out a sniper to the Palestinian Hotel in Baghdad, it would be as valid as what Fisk puts forth, using his "evidence".

For a more complete accounting of what happened that day, here's a link that gives a bit more detail.

Robert Fisk told an outright lie in his article when he said the tanks were not under fire from their position on the bridge. What he intentionally does is mislead the gullible reader into thinking that a spotter and a sniper are the same person.

If one were to click the link I provided, one may find that what happened that day was a mistake, as there are partial transcripts of radio chatter.

quote:
The immediate reaction from U.S. commanders to the attack on the Palestine Hotel was anger and consternation. Lt. Col. Philip DeCamp, Captain Wolford's commanding officer, began screaming over the radio, "Who just shot the Palestinian [sic] Hotel?" according to Tomlinson. Tomlinson listened as DeCamp confronted Wolford. "‘Did you just f***ing shoot the Palestinian [sic] Hotel?'" he demanded of Wolford.

Tomlinson said that at first, Wolford was not sure that what he had hit was in fact the hotel. Tomlinson continues:

"[After a delay of some minutes] Wolford says, ‘Yes, yes. We had an observer up there. And DeCamp says, ‘You're not supposed to fire on the hotel.' And then there is a brief discussion about what he did see and why did he fire because this was very serious. They weren't supposed to shoot at the Palestine Hotel."


So, no the US military did not murder journalists. The US Military was under orders to leave the Hotel alone. In the heat of battle, which was going on at the time in spite of Fisk's lie, mistakes happen.

One would think that this would be good enough. I know, however, that it will not be. People will rush to the defense of Fisk and make all kinds of claims about me. That's well and good, but I've already shown, via the link, that Fisk intentionally mislead his readers.






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mr_mysterious2
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posted on 6-19-2006 at 05:30 AM Edit Post
Keep in mind that the article was written April 29th. The article you cited was written on May 27th. The question is, was Fisk privy to the information relayed in the radio chatter? Reading the link you posted, it seems to me that Pentagon officials continued to assert that they were returning enemy fire in contradiction to the statements of multiple eye witnesses. Take that within the context of the apparent targeting of an Al Jazeera reporter earlier that same day and the question of whether they were targeting reporters becomes a reasonable one.

The radio chatter shows one thing, commanders reacted with anger and consternation in the immediate aftermath of the shelling of the hotel. Assuming that Fisk might not yet have had access to this information, one can understand his concern in light of the Pentagon's insistance of sticking to a story that contradicted Fisk's first hand recounting of events as corroborated by other reporters.

Mr. Fisk's most objectionable statement in the article was "I suspect they were killed because the US--someone in the Pentagon though not, I'm sure, Ms Clarke--decided to try to "close down" the press." The radio chatter indicates that his suspicion was incorrect. Only, in the face of incorrect statements coming from the Pentagon on the matter and the attack on journalists twice in the same day, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable conclusion.

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Krydor
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posted on 6-19-2006 at 05:05 PM Edit Post
Well, if you could point me to Fisk's supplemental correction of the original story...

The problem is, and I think I mentioned this, that the tanks on the bridge were under fire. The only one, seemingly, saying they weren't is Fisk. I recall watching that incident on the Talkin' Box.






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mr_mysterious2
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posted on 6-19-2006 at 06:37 PM Edit Post
The problem is, and I think I mentioned this, that the tanks on the bridge were under fire. The only one, seemingly, saying they weren't is Fisk.

Krydor, you have a unique capacity for linking to articles and only reading the part that supports your position. Did you read the entire article? What about this bit...
quote:
Many journalists who were eyewitnesses to the incident, or who had been in the hotel at the time, flatly deny the claim from Centcom and some commanders in Baghdad that the tank was returning fire emanating from the Palestine Hotel. Those who had been monitoring events from their balconies, which offered a full view of the surrounding area, attest that no gunfire or RPG fire had come from the hotel or its immediate vicinity.


[Edited on 6-19-2006 by mr_mysterious2]

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Krydor
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posted on 6-19-2006 at 07:05 PM Edit Post
Um, yeah, I sure did. That's why I made sure to mention that they were looking for the spotter and not the sniper. They thought they found the guy calling in the fire on the tanks.

The tanks were being fired upon, someone was calling in the fire. The most logical place to be would be in that hotel or another high building.

[les edit!]

I find odd stuff and occasionally am notified of something of interest. Today, for this thread, the planets have aligned!

Chompsky Book Review!

quote:
What is most troubling about all this is that there is much that Chomsky and I should agree on. Like him, I was opposed to what I believed was an illegal war in Iraq. In my travels in that country, I, too, have been troubled by the consequences of occupation. Where I differ from him, however, is that I reject Chomsky's view that American misdeeds are printed through history like the lettering in a stick of rock. Instead, the conclusions I have drawn from more than a decade of reporting wars on the ground is that motivations are complex, messy and contradictory, that the best intentions can spawn the worst outcomes and, occasionally, vice versa...

...But what I find most noxious about Chomsky's argument is his desire to create a moral - or rather immoral - equivalence between the US and the greatest criminals in history. Thus on page 129, comparing a somewhat belated US conversion to the case for democracy in Iraq after the failure to find WMD, Chomsky claims: 'Professions of benign intent by leaders should be dismissed by any rational observer. They are near universal and predictable, and hence carry virtually no information. The worst monsters - Hitler, Stalin, Japanese fascists, Suharto, Saddam Hussein and many others - have produced moving flights of rhetoric about their nobility of purpose.'

Which leads to a question: is that really what you see, Mr Chomsky, from the window of your library at MIT? Is it the stench of the gulag wafting over the Charles River? Do you walk in fear of persecution and murder for expressing your dissident views? Or do you make a damn good living out of it? The faults of the Bush administration will not be changed by books such as Failed States. They will be swept away by ordinary, decent Americans in the world's greatest - if flawed and selfish - democracy going to the polls.


I suggest a complete read of the article linked.


[Edited on 6-19-2006 by Krydor]






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Hillbilly Jim
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 04:05 AM Edit Post
Here are a couple of links for anyone interested regarding the not-so-kindly Prof. Chomsky.

http://www.antichomsky.blogspot.com/

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/

The writers from these links blew so many holes in Chomsky’s arguments that it’s amazing that anyone takes him seriously anymore. I don’t have a link to it right now but Alan Dershowitz also recently attacked (and completely shredded the Prof. in a debate last year) Chomsky over his incessant anti-Israel bias. Yeah, I know it’s the same Dershowitz that helped OJ Simpson get away with murder, but still.

My own opinions that Chomsky is little more than a dangerous and mendacious hack were formed on two things. One, he claimed in late 2001 that the US invasion of Afghanistan was intended to deliberately create a “silent” genocide of around 3 to 4 million Afghans. When this genocide never materialized, and instead 3 to 4 million Afghans returned home from refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan after NATO destroyed the Taliban regime, Chomsky (as he can never ever admit that the US occasionally does good in the world) remained completely silent. Two, Chomsky’s whole gig ever since the 1960’s has been not just to sanctify the enemies of the US and the West (any Chomsky critique of the Soviet Union, for example, is half-hearted at best and is usually justified by Chomsky by the alleged imperialism of the USA), but he actively promotes the ideology that the United States is in all facets the successor to Nazi Germany. I don’t care how anti-Bush Jr. one is, or how much one believes that the war in Iraq was wrong, anyone who seriously attempts to parallel the US to the Third Reich has to be literally insane.

Also, we’re sort of stuck with the “Right-Left” description of the political spectrum, even if the original labels from the Cold War period no longer apply, which is unfortunate. If anything the anti-war anti-American Left now more closely resembles the old isolationist Charles Lindburgh Republicans circa 1938. The neo-conservatives (which is such a stupid term in itself considering that they should be called neo-Soviets for their excising any trace of the old Reagan small-government policies that the Republicans used to so strongly believe in) that promote US intervention almost everywhere for any reason more closely resemble the interventionist Woodrow Wilson Democrats of 1919.





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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 12:44 PM Edit Post
Thanks for the links Hillbilly...

Right now I'm going over the anti-Chomsky blogspot, and reading the "Noam Chomsky is an Iconic Mass Murderer" link. So far (about a quarter the way through) the author of this is merely calling Chomsky names or saying that he supports mass murders. Its laughable. He says that because Chomsky was against going to Vietnam, he is hence rooting for Communism. HA! Yea, and since I didn't want for us to invade Iraq, I like totally love Saddam... totally! Fuck this guy.

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posted on 6-20-2006 at 03:05 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly Jim
Here are a couple of links for anyone interested regarding the not-so-kindly Prof. Chomsky.

http://www.antichomsky.blogspot.com/

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/



You're using blogs to dispute someone's credibility? Moments, such as these, are priceless.





WHY WE FIGHT

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Krydor
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 03:17 PM Edit Post
Hillbillly,

You'll notice BBMN didn't address the Chomsky Genocide dealie. Therefore, you have to do this: here's the link.

Here's where he says it:

quote:
Well we could easily go on….but all of that….first of all indicates to us what’s happening. Looks like what’s happening is some sort of silent genocide. It also gives a good deal of insight into the elite culture, the culture that we are part of. It indicates that whatever, what will happen we don’t know, but plans are being made and programs implemented on the assumption that they may lead to the death of several million people in the next few months….very casually with no comment, no particular thought about it, that’s just kind of normal, here and in a good part of Europe. Not in the rest of the world. In fact not even in much of Europe. So if you read the Irish press or the press in Scotland…that close, reactions are very different. Well that’s what’s happening now. What’s happening now is very much under our control. We can do a lot to affect what’s happening. And that’s roughly it.


It was so over the top, that Noamster had to retract this foolishness. However, the initial statement got many in the reality based community in a tizzy. It was repeated in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

It's more fun to pick apart the whole thing, like how Colombia was the worst human rights violator in the 90's or how terrorism works. Bullshit like that is taken as gospel by certain people.

Yeah,Noam is dangerous. He's a dangerous propagandist. A master of the "Big Lie".






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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 05:44 PM Edit Post
You'll notice BBMN didn't address the Chomsky Genocide dealie.

Fuck off. Also, you'll notice that didn't comment on any of the article, excpet the part were its author destroys that thing called critcal thinking. You want our men out of Vietnam? Commie lover! Fuck that. And fuck you very much for attempting to illustrate that I somehow am being silent on anything. When I posted that I was literally a quarter the way through it, and that was the only part that really stuck out. If you want to engage in discussion, debate, critical thought, whatever you want to call it, the first thing you do shouldn't involve such juvenile shit.


You didn't vote for Bush? Do you hate Jesus?!!!?!11!

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Krydor
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 06:16 PM Edit Post
Oh, you mean the stuff like "I've only seen about 1% of Chomsky's stuff that people can pick apart." When presented with a) A review from a fellow who should be sympathetic and b) Noam's own words you go into attack the messenger mode.

There's an entire interview with Zmag up there that is far more than 1% questionable. From Afghan Genocides to the Horrific Human Rights Record of Colombia That Tops Even That Of China Or North Korea.

Are you going to defend the indefensible or continue with the ad-hominems? Based on our converstations of the past, I'm going with the latter.

I suggest you read some of George Orwell's essays written prior to WWII. Can't find 'em? Look here. He was about as anti-British empire/colonialism as one could get. However, he understood where the greater threat was. He knew that the anti-war protesters of the time were actually aiding and abetting the Nazis.

He'd say the same thing about Noam, Fisk, Pilger et al and their sycophants.






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benoitbrokemyneck
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 07:00 PM Edit Post
Oh, you mean the stuff like "I've only seen about 1% of Chomsky's stuff that people can pick apart." When presented with a) A review from a fellow who should be sympathetic and b) Noam's own words you go into attack the messenger mode.

I swear to god I fucking hate you. I read part of this blog, and it is clear from the get go that the dude is a fucking retard. So I call him a retard and you say "ohhhh! look at BBMN ignore this and that!" Fucking moron. No. I am not ignoring anything. I read part of the article, but the only thing that really struck me, was the authors black/white tone. I could care less about what he has to say actually, just given that he is a fuck up. "You are against the Vietnam war... you are obviously a commie." FUCKING A!

If I'm asking to hear arguements against Chomsky, and I am, then I want just that. Not this bullshit that he tries to pass off as intellectualism. "Oh you see here, he didn't adopt a kitten! He hates kittens. He drives a white car. He must be a white supremacist. He voted for Clinton?! PERVERT!" You want me to take any of his article serious when this is how he rationalizes? Right, sure... okay.

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chretienbabacool
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 08:40 PM Edit Post
Anti-immigration protestors are aiding and abetting the KKK. So there you KKK supporter!





Go Cubs!

And just imagine if, instead of the Palins, the Obama family had a pregnant, underage daughter on display at their convention, flanked by her black boyfriend who "intends" to marry her. Who among conservatives would have resisted the temptation to speak of "the dysfunction in the black community"?

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posted on 6-20-2006 at 09:48 PM Edit Post
Oh, this is exciting, innit?

Watch! Having unsuccessfully attempted to bait BBMN into a discussion about Chomsky in which he can parrot Christopher Hitchen's critiques of Chomsky from The Nation, Krydor now attempts to bait BBMN into a discussion about Orwell in which he can parrot Hitchens' book, Why Orwell Matters.

Crikey!


Unsuccessfully bait? I'm not the dude who bothered to write this: "I've read a bit of Chomsky over the years, and I have found some people that challenge his facts (mind you they challenge about 1% of what he says) but I'm not sure where the 'blame America' sentiment you speak of is. "

He threw it out there, I simply caught it. Want to try again, Jeb? Of course you don't. The evidence lies before you. The statement, the counter argument and the absolute ignoring of the counter to be replaced by a personal attack.

What bugs me is that you, as far as I can recall, have little use for Chomsky. It's odd that you'll allow asinine statements regarding his accuracy to pass, but have no problem with infantile harangues to defend those that initiated that aspect of the discussion.

Whatever, Jeb. If you have a problem with Hitchens' interpretation of Orwell, have at it. If you have one with mine, give 'er. Orwell is more than germane to the topic at hand. For that matter, so is Hitchens.

What's exiting is watching your superior intellect get squandered in drive by flames.






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Y2G
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 10:10 PM Edit Post
Sorry it took me some time, I was drunk and too busy living my life. But here are a couple of interesting links:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/05/noam_chomsky_de.php


http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50239

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=490

Some of my favorite quotes:

Reporter: "On the U.S. position regarding his visit, Chomsky said:"

Noam Chomsky: "I don't know what their response will be, and I don't care."


The professor said that "if the U.S. was to stick to the clear and precise definition of terrorism in its code of laws, it would be the leading terrorist state."

"I think Nasrallah has a reasoned argument and [a] persuasive argument that [the arms] should be in the hands of Hezbollah as a deterrent to potential aggression, and there is plenty of background reasons for that,"

I could quote some more, but all in all, Chomsky is his usual human rights activist, always right, well balanced and with a clear view of reality old self.

America - Bad
Israel - Bad
Hezbollah - Pure gold. This is a group of people, so humane and caring. Such a peace loving bunch of hippy happy go lucky fellers. So misunderstood in their times.

You can see previous posts I made. I am quite the reasonable fellow, who is capable of criticising his own country's errors. But what I don't do, is blindly and automatically point a finger at one side, just to keep my image up and running.

Chomsky and his loyal pupil Ilan Pappe, are practically turning every rock, making up any type of "evidence", in order to smear Israel and America. I do not respect this type of "critical thinking". It takes two to tango baby. You cannot hug Nasralla, and spit at Bush. That is called having an agenda.

Again, America and Israel are no angles, but Hez-ba-fucing-la !???? THESE are the people who Chomsky so happily associates himself with? and this is a "critically thinking" intellectual?

Of course, I don't hear too many critics from Chomsky's school criticising Sadam Hussain, Ayatoula Chomaini (sp?), Sudan, Syria, Iran, or any other place where Muslims are murdered by Muslims. Becuase that would be an interference with the "USA and Israel are the devil" theory they have going.

And I fully expect this to be totally ignored as being "irrelevant", which is always the case, since no one wants to be percieved as racist by suggesting that Muslims have been responsible for crimes that the USA have not even been accused of...

Anyway, back to the soccer world cup for a while.





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anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Hillbilly Jim
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 10:22 PM Edit Post
Chomsky's orcs are usually easy to identify by their mannerism of completely freaking out and resorting to ad hominem attacks against anyone who criticizes their master.





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chretienbabacool
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posted on 6-20-2006 at 10:36 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Y2G
Of course, I don't hear too many critics from Chomsky's school criticising Sadam Hussain, Ayatoula Chomaini (sp?), Sudan, Syria, Iran, or any other place where Muslims are murdered by Muslims. Becuase that would be an interference with the "USA and Israel are the devil" theory they have going.


Oh bull. I'm not in the Chomsky school, but I still get this same argument leveled at me every time I criticize the US. Every time anti-war activists do also criticize Iran or Sadaam, it gets completely ignored.

There has been a consistent movement to criticize Iran for trying to get nuclear power in the peace community, but this never gets covered. All that gets covered is when we criticize the US and Israel for having nuclear power, seemingly so we can get saddled with the anti-US and Israel label.

You can dislike Chomsky all you want, cause God knows I do, but don't also fall for this trap of saying liberal peace activists are anti-US and Israel.

For my part, I LIVE in the US, so I'm going to spend more time talking about the US because it's more likely I can change things in the US, but that does not mean I don't have problems with other countries.

I can't actually find one world leader I do support.





Go Cubs!

And just imagine if, instead of the Palins, the Obama family had a pregnant, underage daughter on display at their convention, flanked by her black boyfriend who "intends" to marry her. Who among conservatives would have resisted the temptation to speak of "the dysfunction in the black community"?

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Y2G
Showstopper






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Mood: LOUD NOISES!!!

posted on 6-20-2006 at 10:54 PM Edit Post
CBC - As I said, I'll criticise Israel whenever I see the need (Such as for still holding large portions of occupied territories). I'll even state wherever I can that I support a Palestinian state. I am, like you, more likely to talk about things that I have a chance to change.

That being said, My argument is not "If you don't criticise Sudan, don't criticise Israel"

My argument is "If Israel/USA are so bad, that someone practically dedicates his life to battle, then this person has a little problem with perspective"

My initial comment in this thread was that Chomsky practically blames Israel and the USA for every ill in the middle east. But that is total bull shit. Israel occupied the territories since 1967, and for that, I will stand on the barricades and protest.
But one has to stop blaming EVERYthing on us. An extreme Muslim terrorist organization forms - Israel, the twin towers - USA/Israel, Palestinians are dying of hunger - Israel. One tracked minds.

Muslims in the middle east suffer more from the tyrany of their own leaders (all democrats... including the beloved Hezbulla) than from the "imperialist" Israel (who is the messanger of the USA).

But that does not bother Chomsky one little freakin' bit.





Plees exquse tha speling meestayks. I lernd in tha Zoolander School For Kids Who Can't Read Good.

anvilicious - That's a great one Erin

Eddie - Thanks for all the lying, cheating and stealing.

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Krydor
The Man






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posted on 6-21-2006 at 01:41 AM Edit Post
Your opinion seems largely if not wholly dependent on books I already have, so why not engage the primary text?

Because the great sewer backup of '05 has pretty much killed my personal library, so's I hasta re git them fancy books. Damn you, trees!

Could this be detente between us? That would be nice. Not much in the way of entertainment, but nice.






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