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Author: Subject: Philosophical question
King of Harts
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 02:26 PM Edit Post
Philosophical question

I was having an argument with my buddy the other day about the following:

When he was in university (college), one of his professors fucked up one of his grades. Let's assume that there is no debate on this - the metaphysical truth is that his grade "should have been" A, not D+ (because he missed the exam due to illness and the exam shouldn't have counted - instead it counted as a grade of zero). Again, let's assume that there is no question that his professor WOULD change it and agrees his "real" grade is A, but just never did.

My question is, do you think it is morally acceptable for him to alter his grade on his transcript when submitting it to employers/anyone else? Is he "right" to show what employers "want" - that is, the truth and not necessarily what the school said?

The main issue is whether an individual has the moral right to provide the truth, even if it involves screwing with the system on which decisions are based. Thoughts?

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posted on 4-25-2006 at 02:46 PM Edit Post
Morally acceptable: Absolutely not. It's a certified document, so changing it yourself is against the law. He should man up and do whatever it takes to get that grade corrected. "Is he 'right' to show what employers 'want'?" You mean, lying?

My own personal thoughts: Who cares? Most hires are based almost completely on the interview. Tell him to work on those skills, and if they bring up the grade during that process, he shouldn't try to use excuses like it seems he is now.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:01 PM Edit Post
He should have contested it with his school. He should have delt with it at the time. Most schools that I know of have policies and recourses in this area.


No, he should not be forging his transcripts.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:08 PM Edit Post
Definitely wrong. It must be changed in College before he claims an A.

An employer would appreciate a lie much less than a D+.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:11 PM Edit Post
if your friend made an effort to make up the exam, he wouldn't have a D+. he's a bad student. "WAAAAAHH!!! I WAS SICK I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST GIMME AN A!"

he deserves his grade.






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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:33 PM Edit Post
Ditto all above comments.

If he "justifiably" changes one grade, what's to say the others are legitimate? What's the point of an official transcript if anyone can change it at will?

It should be changed by the school and no one else.

If the one grade is that bg of a deal, he should be prepared to explain it to anyone. But there is a fine line between "explaining" and "making excuses".





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King of Harts
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:45 PM Edit Post
Many good points. I'm going to play devil's advocate here, however, based on my buddy's own arguments and based on my own opinions (I agreed with him on some things, and disagreed on others).

Let's remove for a moment the fact that he "should have" made the change (I agree on that). What's done is done. And again, let's work under the assumption that it is indisputable that the professor would change the grade (ie it is not a subjective adjustment, but is completely objective and justifiable). Thus, the "true" grade is A.

It could be argued that the employer wants to know the true grade - in order to make their hiring decision, assuming they're capitalist, they want the most accurate information. That means they want the "right" grade, not the wrong grade, and are worse off if you leave it as is. Effectively, by not changing the grade, you are doing not only yourself a disservice, but the potential employer as well (the grade of D is in fact misinformation), as they may hire the "wrong" guy because they were misled. So the upshot of THAT argument is, it's morally wrong to leave it as is.

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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:52 PM Edit Post
The true grade is a D. A D is what he actually got in the course.

You don't get an A until you prove it. He didn't prove it. He needs to suck it up.

If it were indisputable, then he would have recieved the A already.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 03:56 PM Edit Post
the D is not misinformation. it's the grade he got due to the actions he took. even if the professor would have changed the grade if your friend made the effort to make sure he did it. which he didn't. it's like saying the grade you get on a test isn't the "true" grade because it would have been better if you made the effort to study but just didn't. "well i COULD do better if i wanted to, but i just didn't want to. but that fact that i COULD is what's important."

no.

and on top of that, this test is apparently a very important test if it can turn an A to a D. and your friend never took the test. we have no idea how he would've done on the test so the A is still not his true grade, it's simply what his average was prior to a very important test. had he actually taken the test, his "true" grade could've still been a B or a C based on his performance. we're making alot of assumptions on his grasp on the material in this test, assumeing he'd ace it.

it was his own actions, or lack of actions, that caused him to get the D, hense the D is the most truest grade, regardless of what his average may have been prior to that test.






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Y2G
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:09 PM Edit Post
There's just no way around it king...

He got a D and for whatever reasons - that's the only truth in this story.

Now what I don't understand is why this would be indisputable or irreversible. Take me for example (Not the best example, but that's all I got):

I finished College and failed in Statistics. The reason - My lecturer and I did not see eye to eye. He made my life a living hell back then. I protested and tried to change the deal. In the mean time I had to start working so I applied with a C.V stating that I finished college and must complete the missing grade if required in 6 months. I actually got accepted at the work I do now and since got retested and passed (by a point - Hey, I still hate Sadistics). NOW, my true grade is a pass. Any other statement I would make prior to that, would be a complete, indisputable and utter lie.

Why not re-take this exam is what I want to know.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:33 PM Edit Post
I give this thread a C-.






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Y2G
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:39 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by angstboy
I give this thread a C-.

But I’ll tell everyone that the real grade is A+





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King of Harts
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:41 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by 2HoT
If it were indisputable, then he would have recieved the A already.

Like I said, the entire argument must be based on the concept that the "correct" grade is A. I agree that if there's even a shadow of a doubt that the A is not the true grade, then it's unacceptable to change. But I'm trying to extract the philosophical issue here (ie, the "truth" is that the professor screwed it up and would for sure change it if given the chance.)

quote:
Originally posted by Operation Retard
it's like saying the grade you get on a test isn't the "true" grade because it would have been better if you made the effort to study but just didn't. "well i COULD do better if i wanted to, but i just didn't want to. but that fact that i COULD is what's important."

we have no idea how he would've done on the test so the A is still not his true grade, it's simply what his average was prior to a very important test. had he actually taken the test, his "true" grade could've still been a B or a C based on his performance. we're making alot of assumptions on his grasp on the material in this test, assumeing he'd ace it.

As per above, I'm working under the assumption here that the truth is that the university would say that the grade is A, not D (objectively and indisputably). So it's not comparable to a subjective "I could've done better" situation. With regards to the "who knows how well he would've done on the test" thing, we also have to ignore that scenario, because the school would've and should've ignored it and given him the grade of "average before the test", meaning the grade is A and not D. Attempting to extrapolate "how he would've done on the test" would actually add unnecessary subjectivity and ambiguity into the situation.

Just for the record, I really did have this debate with my friend last night, taking the OTHER side of a lot of points but agreed on a few things - this isn't just me making up a story about a "friend" who is actually me.

Edit to respond to:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhythmic
If he "justifiably" changes one grade, what's to say the others are legitimate? What's the point of an official transcript if anyone can change it at will?

I 100% agree on this - the system should do its best to NOT allow this type of behaviour. There is a massive cost to allowing and/or encouraging people to change their grades to present what they feel is the "right" grade. But in the context of this discussion, we’re dealing with an isolated incident in a vacuum, and removed from the “system”. I definitely would acknowledge that our discussion is getting more and more impractical and more philosophical, but that was the point (thus the thread title.)

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by King of Harts]

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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:50 PM Edit Post
You still have to keep the transcript as it is, you can't change them. If the prof would be willing to change the grade because of the illness, then that is what needs to be done.

Until then, it is what it is, and you can't change it because of what you believe (justifed or not) it should be.

Though one thing strikes me as odd: if not taking the final could drop you from an A to a D, that is a pretty hefty final. I can't imagine he would just drop the final and give him the A he had before the final. If that were the case, why would you even take the final and run the risk of lowering your grade? Just don't take it and maintain your A. I would think that at the very least, he would have to take the final and his grade would be the average of the final and his pre-final grade

In all honesty, he is lucky he got a D in the class, if he didn't take the final, technically he should get an incomplete, not the A he had before the final anyway.

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by mooseheadjack]





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 04:52 PM Edit Post
here's the problem. if it's indisputable and based on a professor error, then if he calls the school and the professor, and that professor confirms the grade on his trascript is based on a personal error, then they'd change the transcript officially.

if that's not possible, then the grade is NOT indisputable.

that's the problem here. if the situation is as you say, he should be able to get it changed officially and not have to change the transcripts on his own.

if he can't get the transcript changed officially, then the situation is not as you say, and the change of grade would be a lie.

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by Operation Retard]






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King of Harts
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:06 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by mooseheadjack
Though one thing strikes me as odd: if not taking the final could drop you from an A to a D, that is a pretty hefty final. I can't imagine he would just drop the final and give him the A he had before the final. If that were the case, why would you even take the final and run the risk of lowering your grade? Just don't take it and maintain your A.


This is a different issue altogether. You're questioning the motives now, and suggesting his true grade should be something else. This changes the assumptions that the argument is predicated on (which is natural, but not relevant to the actual underlying issue.)

quote:
Originally posted by Operation Retard
here's the problem. if it's indisputable and based on a professor error, then if he calls the school and the professor, and that professor confirms the grade on his trascript is based on a personal error, then they'd change the transcript officially.

if that's not possible, then the grade is NOT indisputable.


I agree that the official transcript should be changed. To put it practically, what if he was applying for jobs only the day after he got his transcripts? Does it change anything if the professor verbally agreed to change it, but due to processing time, it'd take the 2 weeks to get the actual document changed? (I'm just trying to stress the "indisputable" thing. The right grade will get there eventually, just not yet.)

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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:09 PM Edit Post
wait, what I want to know is why would the professor just drop the the grade in the first place? Because he was sick? You should still have to take the final to earn the grade. He didn't complete the work, he did not earn an A

And until the grade is actually changed, he earned a D. Once the professor changes the grade (which is morally wrong itself) then the has earned an A

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by mooseheadjack]

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by mooseheadjack]





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:12 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by King of Harts
Does it change anything if the professor verbally agreed to change it, but due to processing time, it'd take the 2 weeks to get the actual document changed? (I'm just trying to stress the "indisputable" thing. The right grade will get there eventually, just not yet.)


No. It would not change a thing…

He should come forward and say “My grade is currently a D due to A B and C. My professor promised to change it in a couple of days and I’ll be able to provide the relevant documents etc.”





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:18 PM Edit Post
Have your friend change the grade to a "C+" and let's call it even.





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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:25 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Y2G
He should come forward and say “My grade is currently a D due to A B and C. My professor promised to change it in a couple of days and I’ll be able to provide the relevant documents etc.”


and there you go. if the employer is truely interested in hiring him, he'll believe him that the grade on the trascript is an error and give him the benefit of the doubt. and when the change is made, your friend can submit the new transcript.

and i also agree with moose that if this professor would give the kid an A without him taking the final is retarded and hard to believe.






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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:34 PM Edit Post
Maybe YOU're retarded and hard to believe!

F++!!!






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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:39 PM Edit Post
shut up, mr. inappropriate guy who likes to draw boobs where there should be no boobs cuz he's a jerk!!






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King of Harts
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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:42 PM Edit Post
Well, that's what happens sometimes. In any event, it doesn't matter whether the professor is acting appropriately, what matters is - given he would change the grade, is that enough to make it the "truth"?

Let me just change the example and remove the source of some of this controversy (ie the illness) - what if it was an outright typo? You talk to the professor, he says "shit, it's an A, not a D, sorry. It'll take a week or two to fix officially." When you apply for a job the next day, what would YOU do? What GPA do you provide - the wrong one, or the right (adjusted) one?

Also, I do agree with Y2G that the disclosure you suggested is more appropriate than changing the grade (or in his case, he actually scratched it out and wrote "error"). But now we are dealing with "how to approach making a change", and not "should a change be done at all".

Edit to remove smileys.

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by King of Harts]

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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:46 PM Edit Post
it's just like Y2G said and i reiterated. whether it's a bad professor or a typo. you show the transcript as is, stated it's an error in the process of being fixed and you'd be happy to show the correct transcript when the process is done. period. this conversation is over. anything else would be wrong.


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posted on 4-25-2006 at 05:52 PM Edit Post
Ziggy is a name for faggots who have sex with small, helpless children of the same gender as the person named Ziggy. That's right. U R teh FAGGORTLESTORZ!






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