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Project Orton
nilesanderson - 6-26-2004 at 12:16 AM

I read in one of the other posts a comment that went along the lines of Flair and Triple H trying for a year to put Randy Orton over and failing. I understand that there is a good amount of posters on this board that don't really like Randy Orton, but even the biggest detractor of him must realize that comment is complete and utter bullshit. Project Orton has been effective, or else they would've backed out by now.

Want proof of this? Just go back to Calgary, the night after Backlash. Orton was getting a huge amount of respect from the crowd with Randy chants all over the place. "Oh, that's just because he fell on thumbtacks the night before". Ok, fine, I'll accept that. So how do you explain the Randy chants during his match against Shelton Benjamin at Bad Blood? I mean, he was the heel in the match and he just finished bashing the crowd before it started. Why would the crowd be chanting Randy over and over again throughout the match over our new internet darling, Shelton Benjamin?

Not only that, but Orton has been in matches that have ranged from good to great over the past few months. I can't think of any shitty matches he's been in. Maybe some forgettable matches, but hey, even Benoit has those (A-train anyone?). You can argue all you want that he's being carried, but I think it's pretty clear that's not true. Randy Orton might not be capable of carrying a shitty worker to a good match, but he can certainly hold his own against a good worker.

Randy Orton isn't the next Lex Luger, as some people believe. He's the next Triple H. The new Net Satan. Sure, he's not as good as Triple H yet, but he's working on it, and has been noticably improving both on the mic and in the ring. He is capable of drawing face and heel heat. Plain and simple, Randy Orton is over with the crowd. Triple H, Ric Flair and Mick Foley have succeeded in doing this quite admirably. And he's only going to get better. You don't have to like it, but for fucks sake, you're gonna have to get used to it and accept it.


microplay_24 - 6-26-2004 at 01:05 AM

Randy Orton sort of reminds me of the next Randy Savage…A successful heel IC champion in a short amount of time, and a long one at that, and quite possibly a future babyface world champion, like Randy Savage, if it rains true.

Though he is technically not comparable to Savage, success-wise, he just may be.

[Edited on 6-26-2004 by microplay_24]


ConspiracyVictim - 6-26-2004 at 04:09 AM

You know, the thing I hate most about Orton, besides his too-frequent screw-ups on the mic and on the mat, is the fact that he gives me the impression that he really believes his own hype. That Randy Orton the "person" thinks he's as great a pro-wrestler as Randy Orton the "push."

Which in turn tells me that he is indeed effective... in my opinion, at least... the bastard...


madiq - 6-26-2004 at 04:37 PM

I don't know about Randy. Sure, he'll be a star; the WWE won't rest until he is. Sure he's improving, but improvement alone shouldn't warrant being verbally fellated either. My issue is that he looks like some borderline homosexual idealized version of what a pro wrestler should look like, and he's a third generation wrestler to boot. So they put him in the clique with the popular guys with all the clout, as part of a process of making us respect him. (I mean, if WWE were high school, Randy would be wearing the varsity jacket.)

We of the IWC are a hyper-sensitive bunch. We are highly motivated to form and voice opinions, so we tend to see things and respond to things that the average fan doesn't see. So we knew the Randy Orton Project was in full swing, and were highly resistant to it. (It's a reflex.) However, while we scrutinized and dissected every manner of why he was deserving or undeserving of The Push, the masses were giving less than a full fuck, responding with apathy. Now that he has started to show signs of being deserving of his spot, the IWC is in the position of possibly amending their earlier opinion, or growing MORE resistant to the WWE marketing/promotional "Machine." But for the masses, someone who WASN'T interesting or entertaining now is. That begins and ends the analysis. They didn't intellectualize his push, and how Randy was "protected" by the bookers while being "carried" by better workers. No, they see Randy, and have a favorable opinion of him now.

However, to me, this doesn't translate to undeniable babyface charisma. If anything, his "I think I get more ass than you" Smirk evinces more of a natural heel appeal than any air of likeability. It's my opinion, but I think he oozes enough heel charisma to turn Triple H heel. Triple H may play a great asshole, but we've always been able to respect him for it. Young Randall doesn't have that vibe.

But I just can't help but feel hoodwinked by WWE, who claims to be giving people what they want, but they actually spend a lot of time telling us what to want. Randy isn't a superstar because of our opinions, he is one in spite of it.


the goon - 6-26-2004 at 08:45 PM

Here's why I don't like Orton, and it's for a lot of the same reasons I never liked Goldberg: The guy basically got lucky with what he was given. Let's look at someone like Matt Hardy. He busted his ass for many years before making it big in the WWF/E. He's done some insane ladder matches, stuck around when his brother got fired, and has basically been a WWE mainstay for the last three years or so. So what does he get? A run with the cruiserweight title on Smackdown (yeah, that title is SO prestigious right now), a nice long losing streak on RAW, and now a horrible pregnancy angle with Lita and Kane. Now let's look at Randy Orton. He was kind of a no-name midcarder, then he got injured (which was perhaps the luckiest thing that's ever happened to him). He came back as a heel with the "RNN" updates (or whatever they were called) and then was fortunate enough to be teamed with Triple H. Hmmmm....teamed with Triple H, I wonder if that would be bad or good for a person's career in WWE? So now Orton is teamed with Triple H AND Ric Flair, plus he gets the gimmick of being a legend killer. A feud with Mick Foley where Orton goes over? Check. Pinfall victories over other big stars like Shawn Michaels? Check. The longest IC title run in seven years? Check. My point is, how can anyone NOT get over with all of that? Is that all entirely Orton's fault? No. But I resent the guy the same way I did when Goldberg was getting his big undefeated streak push, as in "Who the hell is this guy, and why is he getting this much rub from the company?" I'll admit people ate up the Goldberg gimmick, but I wasn' one of them. People look at Orton and go "Man, Orton's going to be big! I gurantee he'll be a top star soon in WWE!" Well shit, of course he's going to be! A can of paint could be if it got as much of a push as Orton. Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again now: ANYONE could do Randy Orton's gimmick. Rewind two years, and stick in Matt Hardy or Christian or John Cena or Charlie Haas or Shelton Benjamin or even Edge or Jericho instead of Orton. Any of those guys could be a member Evolution with the whole "legend killer" thing. There are some guys who could not be replaced: Ric Flair, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, The Rock...but to me, Orton is so interchangable. Okay, sorry, rant over.


Ecosystem - 6-27-2004 at 12:05 AM

Look at what some people insinutate. Randy Orton the person believes his own hype. When you're
THAT good as a heel that people think you're actuallya jerk, you're doing your job. Orton got over
because of the storylines he was in. Duh. If you get over on pure talent and fan reaction, you're RVD.
Wrestling is based around storylines, and if Orton is the tool they're using fine. Most wrestlers are interchangable.A few people, such as Kurt Angle, have thorough command of the audience and can not be interchanged. But for the most part, you are what you're booked. Face it: A few blown spots via inexperience not withstanding, Orton has pretty good workrate.He's quick, he plays to the crowd, he's the master of heel tactics, and hits a bunch of pretty good spots with good sequencing.

Orton is not the next Triple H, nor the next Randy Savage.he will be The Rock, circa 1998/9 or Chris Jericho, circa 2001/early 2002. A little less charisma, a little less workrate than Jericho right now, but he's a prototypical heel who plays it like a perfect prototype. Those "Randy" chants just may be the sign of an ultimate Rock effect....we hit the "Why don't we like this guy?" point, you have blockbuster babyface. Just watch. ESPECIALLY since he didn't get everything right away, like some other ungrateful next big things.


Bonestein - 6-27-2004 at 12:54 AM

I completely agree with the goon. I just don't see anything special about Orton. The only thing he has is the massive push he's received since RNN. There is nothing special about his in-ring skills nor his mic skills. Everytime I see him I can't help but think that he's below average in both areas. He's a big reason that I don't worry about missing Raw... he's all over the place, making me want to change the channel.


microplay_24 - 6-27-2004 at 05:44 AM

Well, the WWE doesn’t care about what fans think of Orton, it’s themselves. Duh. They don’t give a shit about what we think about this guy…Apparently, if you’re the son of Cowboy Bob Orton, coming out of a fairly established wrestling family, and a third generation superstar at that, then you’re given the ball right off the bat. And that’s Randy Orton for you.

If he’s being spoon fed this early in his career by means of being a part of Evolution and holding the IC title this soon in his career, but is really able to show his talent and ability, half the Internet fans should re-think about their opinions about Orton in the future.

You can bitch about how soon he was given success in the WWE, but don’t be bitching if he’s actually consistently improving over time…that’s all. Though I think he’s still an amateur on the mic, his in ring ability is getting better, and all he has room for is more improvement over time. And if he ends up surpassing most stars eventually after some time due to his talent and abilities, then they’re shouldn’t be any reason to bitch about him.

He may be good now, but Orton will get better over time.


promoter2003 - 6-27-2004 at 05:05 PM

I don't know what to think about this Orton push. I can't say I really can come down on him for his mega push because I kind of liked the pushes Goldberg and Lesnar got in their early stages. I'm a sucker for a fresh face coming in and dominate storyline wise when it fits. I also kind of understood those two guys push as well. Goldberg for all intents and purposes was an Austin clone and wrestling history shows that popular characters are usually duplicated. Vince has done this with Demolition(Road Warriors), gang warz(nWo) and so has Eric Bischoff with Renegade(Warrior) and whatnot.

Lesnar's push was simply because of his background and he has a monster physique to fit the story. Vince wanted the next big thing with Rock gone and Austin in limbo. The problem as we know with this scenario was if Lesnar had the tools and heart to pull it off to work in a way Vince wanted it to. I believe Vince might have thought he had a new version of Goldberg, but with actual background skills. The verdict is still out on this one because if Brock returns(nfl fails or even succeeds) he could bring some new depth to wrestling. Something like Rock movie star brings or he could just vanish away.

I guess the story with Orton(who is another project of trying to get a young buck over in a way to become the next big thing) is that he is the evolution of the business(third generation) thus he is in Evolution. If he is the evolution of the business that means he should be capable of toppling the legends of the business. He will even take over Evolution maybe in a story of evolution surpassing Ric Flair and Triple H.

The question is will this work out in actually making him an evolution of what a wrestling superstar will be? I don't know, but I guess we should see where this all takes us.
IMO, Orton is 50/50. I believe the direction may be Rock/Orton at SummerSlam and then a slow build to WrestleMania involving Triple H. Orton would go over two of Triple H's greatest rivals before their showdown. It's a nice story, but I think Orton is still too green.
It's not like fans are really watering at the mouth for Orton like they were for Rock in late 97. Brock also had some backing until they screwed up his undisputed title reign when they split the titles.

They also turned him face too quick imo and this is where my concern with Orton is. I can't really tell if putting him up against Triple H within the next year is a good idea. I know Trips would try his best with the Orton project to be like Flair in creating a star, but the track record isn't too great. On top of that Triple H really is above Orton in every way. At least when Rock took over the Nation he was obviously the shining star in the group. Orton has Flair and Triple H to deal with.
I'm not so sure about Triple H face. He could tank the program again like he did with the Jericho storyline in 2002. Back then I thought for sure Jericho/Trips would be a classic with Trips' face heat and Jericho alledgedly being better as a heel. I know the problems that came with the storyline, but it remained what it was and that was a flop that hurt Triple H's opponent much more than it did him. At least Jericho was seasoned to soften the blow. Will Orton be able to? I'm not even bashing Trips, but I can't see Orton improving that much in the next few months. Then again, he could pull a Brock who improved a lot since September of last year until his match with Eddie at No Way Out. We'll see.


bigfatgoalie - 6-27-2004 at 05:35 PM

For all the people who complain about Randy Orton being pushed too fast....

Anybody else realize that Orton showed up over 2 years ago as a luke warm babyface? No? No? Anybody? Does anybody care that the RNN thing was the WWE seeing Orton flunking at being a face and trying to mimic the Rock's success as a face who acts like the people like him?

All of this was over 2 years ago!!! Both Goldberg and Lesnar won the World title in their first year in the business! Randy Orton hasn't even been pushed as hard as a guy like Batista was intially. Remember it was Kane who went from feuding with Triple H to losing to Batista at Armageddon 2002.

Orton has been built up over 2 years, and he has been built up in the way people have been screaming for! Older guys like Triple H, Flair, Foley, and HBK giving the rub to a young guy is exactly what we have asked of older guys like Hogan and Taker for ever and ever. And didn't we all love when Shelton got wins over Triple H? what has Shelton done besides leetch heat of Angle to make people care about him? On top of that Orton's push has raised the level of the IC title, something that the pushes of guys like Booker T and RVD didn't do.

Yes Orton has been pushed hard....but he hasn't had World title shot like Cena, he hasn't been asked to headline PPV's like Brock was...and he has continued to grow and show dedication that a guy like RVD never did. You can hate Orton for being sloppy, bad on the mic, and just plan old being an ass. But the fact is the WWE has put 2 years of TV time into making Orton a solid heel for the future...and Orton has done his best to grow as his push grows.


bbty23 - 6-27-2004 at 07:16 PM

I don't doubt that Randy Orton will be a great wrestler one day. I think he is good on the mic and shows promise in the ring.

But what annoys me is the way he's been pushed. If I recall, his first PPV match(outside of a rumble) was a world title match (Elimination Chamber). He then beat HBK, was the sole survivor in the survivor series main event (essentially beating Austin). Won the IC title, spent 40 minutes in the rumble, beat the Rock and Mic Foley at Wrestlemania and then beat Foley in a hardcore match. At the same time, a guy like Jericho has been trying to win over Trish Stratus, is mired in the midcard as he feuds with Christian and Tyson Tomko, RVD and Booker T were jobbed out of the singles division and thrown together as a tag team. Those are guys a lot of fans have been saying should be in the main event and they've been totally misused. All Randy Orton has done to the IC title is "had it for seven months." RVD went out week after week and had great matches as IC champ (the matches with Christian and Jericho come to mind - as well as getting a half decent match out of Orton on Raw once). The only good title match Orton has had was the hardcore match with Foley - and it doesn't take a lot to make that match a good one as it sells itself. A better indication of Orton's skills are his matches with Benjamin and Edge - and they are full of sloppy spots and are generally not good in my opinion. Brock Lesnar is totally different in that big guys have always been pushed greater in wrestling (for better or for worse). And within a year, Lesnar was having a amazing matches - some were gimmicks (Taker in HIAC) but most were just regular one on one matches (Angle, Benoit, Guerrero). I have not seen Orton put a match on that's even close to that quality. I think just about anyone could get over as a heel if he was in a faction led by HHH and Flair, and feuded with Foley, HBK and Austin - so I don't see much credibility in the "He's pretty over" logic. By that logic, Eugene vs Benoit should be the main event at Summerslam and Bradshaw does belong in the Smackdown main events.

My point is if Orton is developing, let him develop like other stars do - and give more time to the guys who can go out there and get the job done now.


microplay_24 - 6-27-2004 at 08:28 PM

You know, BFG brought up very interesting points pertaining to this thread.

Both Lesnar and Goldberg DID become world champions in their first year, and in fact, Brock did it all within 5 months of debuting in the company…Amazing eh??

So why is pushing Orton TOO FAST an issue, when others have been pushed TWICE as quick?? There really is no need to bitch now, is there??

Remember, Vince always likes to favour the bigger guys, because even till this day, both Brock and Goldberg are absolute proof of that. Then you’ve got the long-term guys who have paid their dues, and you get Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit. The point?? It depends WHO the person is, and how they initially can affect the sport of wrestling from a first glance, or what the company decides for them when they first sign them. It was the same with the Ultimate Warrior back in the 80s. In many ways, he was WCW’s Goldberg of the 1980s, and sort of the current WWE’s Lesnar of the 80s. I say sort of, because though he was a monster star, it took him a while, including stepping up into the IC title level, until he eventually achieved the world title.

My whole point is, wrestling stars will each get pushed their own way, and NOT necessarily the way all superstars should be….In fact that’s out of the question, I believe. It’s who the superstar is, what works for them, and how fast they can reach the top, all based on who they are…that includes physique, character, and or talent in the ring, or a mix and match of all of these, and maybe other things as well.

So, what I’m saying is, Randy Orton shouldn’t be looked at from a perspective where he SHOULD be following a certain format on how all superstars should be treated, or what dues they should pay first or whatever, because he is who he is, and that’s it. If he wasn’t a third generation wrestler, maybe he would have been treated differently. If he wasn’t ‘Randy Orton’, and not recognized as part of a successful wrestling family, then he may have been treated differently.

The bottom line is that I believe each and every wrestler is pushed differently, and are given success in various degrees, which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how long they should be in the business to gain credibility, or whether they should all follow this ‘Step Ladder’ to get to the top, which many fans and others choose to believe in. This ‘Step Ladder’ on how to reach the top is really non-existent, or is different for each and every superstar. Sometimes even the most technically skilled wrestlers don’t get the best of pushes, such as Ultimo Dragon, and Akio. It’s who the actual person is, and how THEY will be handled, which means NOT like everyone else. Hence Matt Hardy being in the mid-cards all this time, and Lesnar winning his first world title in all of only 5 months within hs debut.

The whole point??: Each superstar progresses differently, and that’s that. Randy Orton is being given a push, simply because of how he was chosen to be handled. I don’ t believe the fans have much say in that, as Vince is the usual mastermind behind all the decisions.


sharpshooter - 6-27-2004 at 10:25 PM

Randy Orton is the new Rock.

In his first run, however brief he was pilloried as boring.
However he came back with a super arrogant character as part of the biggest heel stable, being put over by bigger stars in his IC title reign and soon brushing with the biggest names on the roster.

Rocky 97-98 or Orton 03-04?

The similarities are there and OK, Orton isn't the orator the Rock is, and he probably never will be, but he is improving as his impassioned rant at Bad Blood showed. Also like the Rock he has a limited moveset and tends to whiffle his own finisher (hell DDP whiffled that move for freaking years and it didnt hamper him) and was originally hated by the IWC.

Orton is now turning the crowd onto him, as exposed by the cheers he has been recieving. The arrogant heel character works for him and he is believable.
Orton needs time to develop as a wrestler now he is able to let his natural charisma shine through.

I believe that Orton is a LOCK to be a WWE champion in his time, and a good one at that.
He is not a million miles away from where HHH was at the start of the Push from Hell in spring 99.

However I believe that Project Orton should continue as much as it has, with his continued success starting to grate on his mentor HHH (who continues to NOT win the World title.)

Then, at say the Survivor Series, Orton interrupts the Rock and says that the Rock should just move on through seeing as he doesnt work here anymore and make way for the new living legend.
Rock cuts Randy down with some nifty vocal work (trust me) leavig Randy fuming.

Later on, Rock is signing autographs backstage and Randy attacks him BRUTALLY, eventually forcing him into a SICK bump.
Randy says the next night that he killed the legend of the Rock, drew a big line in blood under hsi wrestling career and ended his shot at big screen stardom.
This is confirmed by JR who says that the Rock's injuries forced him to pull out of a forthcoming movie project.

Then, at the Royal Rumble, Orton is in the final four and is eliminated after being attacked by the Rock.

The next night Randy wails about recompense for the attack to the GM. HHH too is livid. The Rock cuts some crucial promos over the period, saying that Randy Orton is a spoiled child who doesnt give due props to the veterans of the business or the Millions....... of the fans.
He also says that Randy has tarnished his legacy as a WWE wrestler and possibly denied him his future career in the movies, and for that the Rock will never forgive him.
Orton gets his wind up and says he will finally, DEFINITELY and clinically end the Rocks wrestling career, his movie career and hell his life at Wrestlemania.

Fuck, I'd by that.

Orton wins a well booked match, and gets his arm lifted by the Rock. Actually who wins isnt important but Rock puts Orton over big style, as HHH regains his World title the same night.

There is a contest to find the new no.1 contender, and Orton enters (against HHHs instructions) and wins.
Orton slowly turns face leading up to Backlash or Judgement Day, whichever is the RAW PPV.
There is pressure from Evolution for Randy to lay down for HHH, but Randy gets a moving speech from his dad, telling him to take the chance he never got, or something like that.

Randy starts the match apprehensive, and HHH rules him but Randy fights back and HHH carries him to a **** match and Randy reverses a Pedigree into an RKO and wins the title.

That is how I feel Project Randy should reach it's storyline conclusion.


promoter2003 - 6-27-2004 at 10:40 PM

I see Goldberg and Ultimate Warrior in a different league than Orton and Lesnar to be honest. Ultimate Warrior was actually VERY OVER even before he got the I-C title. All you have to do is watch his I-C title win over HTM at Madison Square Garden. He wasn't exactly groomed as a monster until he was at the level of heat he was in the summer of '88. I know smarks rip on Warrior, but the guy was a legitimate threat at one time to Hogan's throne. Not too many can say that. The wwe didn't turn Warrior according to him because it would have cut their own throat at WM 6(you know the friend turn on Hogan template). Lesnar and Orton were nowhere to the level of heat Warrior was during his rise to the top.

Goldberg also was kind of a weird situation. He wasn't shove down people's throat until he reached the magical double digit numbers of around 70-80. Lesnar I think in some ways didn't benefit from winning the title so quick. Before his first Mania he did it all(no wonder he got "bored"). I suppose he didn't realize what kind of path Vince really was forming for him. Remember his greatest champ of them all gimmick, but they stopped doing that around Rumble time.

Yeah, Orton is getting pushed differently and I believe for the reasons I stated above because they can at least have a path to take him down. I think the wwe has problems creating paths for guys like RVD and Jericho at times because they lack a knowledge of where to take them. Thus, they mire in the midcard with matches and storylines that aren't really well thought out(I mean didn't Jericho basically write this whole Trish thing?). I think that is the real problem some may see. Why can't the wwe have paths not only for the chosen few? Not that I feel this way, but sometimes I feel this is what it's all about.


Laner - 6-28-2004 at 12:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by microplay_24
You know, BFG brought up very interesting points pertaining to this thread.

Both Lesnar and Goldberg DID become world champions in their first year, and in fact, Brock did it all within 5 months of debuting in the company…Amazing eh??

So why is pushing Orton TOO FAST an issue, when others have been pushed TWICE as quick?? There really is no need to bitch now, is there??


I see a difference though... while Goldberg, Brock, and Warrior were definitely being pushed by their respective companies, the *fans* were also solidly behind them. Their continued pushes were a result of the fans' interest. Orton's push, on the other hand, seems to be completely Creative-driven... was anyone clamoring to see more Randy? Not really. But the E has been bound and determined to get him over, not *because* of fan interest, but *despite* the lack of it.

That, IMO, is the difference.

As for Rock, yeah, he was pushed too fast, too quick. And the fans reacted negatively. But both Rock and the Fed turned the negative into a positive, and was bolstered in no small part by Rock's natural charisma. Something Randy doesn't possess - or if he does, he hasn't learned how to channel it effectively yet.

[Edited on 6-27-2004 by Laner]


OO Kyle - 6-28-2004 at 02:05 AM

Oh, nonsense. The fans weren't behind Brock. I happen to have a memory longer than that of the average goldfish, and I remember Brock being roundly ignored for one hell of a long time. It wasn't until after they'd fed him Hulk Hogan and pushed him in a way that makes Randy's push look palid in comparison.

But we love to whine, don't we, so let's moan Orton getting television time, because gee, it's not like we don't spend most of our time whining that Vince isn't building new stars.


promoter2003 - 6-28-2004 at 06:27 AM

Maybe this thread is null and void now because Bradshaw has broken all records. He becomes wwe champion three months after breaking up in a tag team that use to job to the Bashams not long ago. Whether it wll be a "dusty finish" or not, there shouldn't be any hypocrisy. JBL has the monster push frrom hell, not Orton. He was just a tag team wrestler 3 months ago I believe(along with 3 televised matches) and he wins a title that took guys like Austin and HBK years to achieve(not including Guerrero and Benoit whom some may say aren't really marketable like Austin and HBK). Talk of lack of build up. Hey, let's not forget he "scammed" his way to the #1 contendership to begin with. Of course this is Vince trying to capitalize on the heel heat he garnered lately in Germany.

[Edited on 6-28-2004 by promoter2003]


Laner - 6-28-2004 at 03:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by OO Kyle
It wasn't until after they'd fed him Hulk Hogan and pushed him in a way that makes Randy's push look palid in comparison.


I disagree.... yeah, there was some disinterest for the first month or so when he was squashing the Hardys, but it didn't last nearly two years (a la Randy), and the fans were behind him way before the Hogan match.

[Edited on 6-28-2004 by Laner]


AKS - 6-28-2004 at 03:50 PM

I admit it: I now love Randy Orton.

And the fans do too. And they are dangerously close to having another Rock situation on their hands. Randy is cool. He's a winner. He's cocky and the fans love it. He could very well be the next big mega star if WWE allows it to happen naturally.

There are a lot of similarities between Orton's Push and Rocky's Push.

We all hated Rocky too. And he didn't desevre the push over more worthy people. But in the end, he earned it.

Randy will too.


ConcreteTG - 6-28-2004 at 05:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ecosystem
Look at what some people insinutate. Randy Orton the person believes his own hype. When you're
THAT good as a heel that people think you're actuallya jerk, you're doing your job.


I got a little news for you..... Randy Orton believes that hype in REAL LIFE. He acts like he owns the E and makes chicks rub his chest at house shows. When he DEIGNS to sign for fans, he insults them as he does so. He humiliates female fans for his amusement - this is BEHIND THE ARENA where no cameras are present. If he's gonna live and breathe his character, fine, then I will hate him "For Real".

quote:

Face it: A few blown spots via inexperience not withstanding, Orton has pretty good workrate.He's quick, he plays to the crowd, he's the master of heel tactics, and hits a bunch of pretty good spots with good sequencing.


Does "heel tactics" include blowing his own finisher on a regular basis, being out of position on a regular basis, and having to be coached along by people?

Look who he wrestles most of the time - the 10+ year veterans who carry him to make SURE he looks good.

And to the idiots who chanted for Randy at Bad Blood - they were one section over from where I was sitting, I could hear sarcasm


microplay_24 - 6-28-2004 at 05:13 PM

For those of you who bitch about Randy Orton being pushed too fast, I’ve got a suggestion: Why don’t you bitch at the Creative, rather than Randy himself?? Plain and simple logic. The guy gets pushed very quick, but it’s not the fans’ choice, it’s creative.

As I also stated before, if Randy is given a push very early only to end up surpassing most with his real talents and credentials, then isn’t that all that matters? Doesn’t matter who gets to the top first, it’s IF they have the ability to do it. If Randy does, he’ll prove it.

At this point in time, don’t be bitching at Orton…bitch at creative.


Slade - 6-30-2004 at 06:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sharpshooter
Randy Orton is the new Rock.


I know how much everyone loves it when I toot my own horn (see: Eddie Proves Me Right), so I'll do it again.

Everybody is finally learning what I knew a long time ago. I remember stating that I believed that Randy Orton would be a huge star much like The Rock, if not be bigger than The Rock. I noted some similarities and what not and discussed how much I loved Randy Orton. I looked for the thread but I could not find it. My guess is that it was wiped out in the OO Forums Crash of April '03, which wiped out all of the threads from mid-December 2002, to mid-April, 2003. So you will have to take my word for it.

However, I did find this thread I started on November 14, 2002 called Get Well Randy, in which I stated that Randy Orton was the one of the best reasons to watch RAW. I knew he had talent way back then. This thread is more proof that I am on the ball, a head of the curve, and all of that jazz when it comes to knowing who will go far in the WWE.

Randy Orton fucking rules. End of story.


crossface99 - 6-30-2004 at 07:17 PM

Well, I don't particularly like Orton, but he's got one positive: his face, his look and whole pretty-boy persona make me seriously root for whoever's wrestling him on any given night. He just looks like the kind of arrogant prick who deserves to get his face mashed in, "Luke Perry shot out of a cannon into a brick wall" style ("my face! my valuable face!" ). So in that sense, he's a perfect fit in Evolution. Neither Edge nor Jericho nor Benjamin nor Hardy would inspire that level of dislike.

On the other hand, he is nothing more than ordinary in every aspect of his game, apart from his standing dropkick, which is pretty fucking sweet. He's got average mic skills and average ring ability; hell, the only area in which he excels is blown spots or promos (I will remember him whiffing on his own finisher and the immortal lines "it's time to start what I finished" for a long time to come).

Maybe Orton will become a huge star along the lines of the Rock. Hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, because another Rock-level star would boost WWE stock, draw in fans, and improve the product. And he does seem more comfortable now in Evolution than he did even a year ago, to the point where he's getting legit heat from the fans, not X-Pac heat. But the goon's point is well taken. Who *wouldn't* have gotten over with the megapush he received? A third-generation star, young, good-looking, receiving RNN updates that got him more airtime while injured than most midcarders do when active, then promptly slotted into THE dominant heel faction on Raw, then booked in a long, grueling feud with Mick Foley in which he emerged the victor, holding pinfall wins over both Foley and the Rock, and holding the IC title longer than anyone in the past 7 years. None of the above has anything to do with Orton himself, with any inner strength, personality, determination or skill he has exhibited; instead, it's his pedigree or what the WWE has given him.

If Orton is truly to become the next Rock, he has to stand up at some point and separate himself from the pack -- not based on association with Triple H, rub from Foley or the IC title, which is just a prop. He has to show why Randy Orton, in and of himself, demands our attention and respect, and what makes him different from any dozen other young wrestlers who would probably have the same heat and stature in the WWE had they received the same monster push.

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by crossface99]


promoter2003 - 6-30-2004 at 07:39 PM

I think trying to say Orton is the next Rock is being unfair to the guy. I say Rock, Austin, Hogan, and Ric Flair are people who are very hard to follow, but I get the sentiment. Who else thinks Orton vs. Undertaker for a WrestleMania wouldn't be interesting. Would Orton be given that big of a push to end the legendary winning streak of the legendary Undertaker? I think that would be the thing to really put him over the top.

----------

The Eddy-Brock segment from Smackdown gained a whopping 746,000 viewers, by far the highest gain on the show. His wwe title win was covered in El Paso news. Ladies and gentlemen if the wwe gets REAL serious with Eddie who knows what the future could hold.
---from the Eddie proves me right thread

I guess putting Eddie against tag wrestlers and jobbing to JBL wasn't in my crystal ball at the time or maybe that is what the wwe construes as REAL serious


[Edited on 6-30-2004 by promoter2003]


the goon - 7-1-2004 at 06:35 PM

Orton over the Undertaker at WrestleMania? I hope not. I think Taker is at the point now where his WrestleMania win streak is so ridiculous (isn't he 13-0?) that it would be pointless to ruin it. I say let the man retire as being undefeated at WrestleMania so it can be part of his legacy.

Back on topic, I just think people need to understand that Orton is not where he is today because he came from out of nowhere, set the wrestling world on fire, got huge pops or heat from the crowd, and was then justifiably (sp?) thrown into high-profile feuds and angles. He's where he is because he was very fortunate in what WWE gave him.

How about this: let's give Garrison Cade the IC title. How about we let him hold it for an ENTIRE YEAR (so that he can be the longest reigning IC champ in EIGHT years). Then, let's have Steve Austin come back to RAW. First, we'll have Cade pin him in a tag match at WrestleMania 21. Then we'll let him pin Austin more or less cleanly in a street fight at the following PPV. Oh yeah, we'll also have Cade be in a stable with Shawn Michaels and Mick Foley, plus we'll give that stable the most TV time on RAW. And boy, after all that, I bet Garrison Cade will be a big star and everybody will be saying he is the future of WWE!


G-B - 7-1-2004 at 06:49 PM

Does anyone remember how much we HATED the Rock when he first started? He didn't deserve his position, or his push. Then he got hurt, came back as a member of the Nation, took over the group, and then became the single most over guy in the company.

If you dare compare Orton to Rock, he is at the Nation stage of the push. I think the WWE is working the same exact formula, and sees Orton as a potential huge draw.


Blown Spot - 7-1-2004 at 07:18 PM

That's a pretty good analogy goon.
Personally I think John Cena is closer to Rock status than Orton and I don't particularly care for either one.


folby - 7-1-2004 at 07:38 PM

quote:
I think Taker is at the point now where his WrestleMania win streak is so ridiculous (isn't he 13-0?) that it would be pointless to ruin it. I say let the man retire as being undefeated at WrestleMania so it can be part of his legacy.

And I say that everyone goes out on their back. It's just the way it works. Why waste the opportunity to put someone over as the man to end Taker's streak? Not saying it should be Orton, just that it's too much of an opportunity to let pass.


crossface99 - 7-1-2004 at 08:01 PM

In passing, I think it's a mistake to opine that because the Rock became a huge star after similar adversity early on, Orton will become huge as well. That reduces everything to formula and leaves out Orton and Rock as individual, real-live participants in this scenario. Orton and Rock are not the same, and therefore the fans will not react to them in the exact same way. Maybe Orton will become a huge star. Maybe not. But like in any other entertainment biz, fans are capricious and don't always go apeshit over who they're told to by the powers that be.


OO Kyle - 7-1-2004 at 08:15 PM

quote:
And I say that everyone goes out on their back.


I agree about 10,000%. Your only REAL "legacy" in this business is what you did to entertain people. As much as I don't like Mick Foley, I can't deny that he has a huge legacy, and he didn't exactly get it with his huge winning streak.

The only, and the Rock means ONLY use Taker's WM "Legacy" can possibly be is if he uses it to put someone else Over. It doesn't even have to be this year- just some time before he retires.

Then again, does anyone remember who ended Goldberg's streak? No, wait, that was Kevin Nash. But that's a bad example, because beating Goldberg did nothing for Big Lazy.


bigfatgoalie - 7-1-2004 at 08:43 PM

The other thing people forget about the mega-push Orton's getting is that Orton does the J-O-B very often in tag matches and situations where the IC title isn't on the line. As much as Orton has won a lot of matches durring his rise to the top...but he hasn't always been on the winning side.

Which is hugely different then the majority of the stars being built up. Look at Benoit's push to World Champ...it was based mostly on him beating other people in very convincing fashion. Orton has been able to cement himself as an uppder-card player while being the guy on Evolution most likely to get pinned clean.

So when you think about it, while Orton may have been helped by guys like HBK, Foley, Flair and Triple H....Orton hasn't done anything to give the fans the idea that the guy he is wrestling is below Orton. The fact that Orton can lose to Shelton, and still be considered as a threat to pin Benoit two weeks later is a very nice accomplishment for Mr. Orton.


the goon - 7-1-2004 at 09:16 PM

Well, with the Undertaker you are implying that his last match has to be at WrestleMania. I have no problem with the man going out on his back in his last match, but there ARE 11 other PPV's (and really more, now that WWE is doing two a month now). What if his last match is at SummerSlam or something? I just think that it would be cool if ten years from now the Undertaker is remembered as being 15-0 at WrestleMania. It adds to his whole mystique. However, if somebody were to beat him, I'd rather have it be an equally big star. For instance, I REALLY tought Flair was going to be the first guy to beat him at WrestleMania X-8 (especially when Arn Anderson came in), but I was wrong. If someone's going to beat him at Mania, it should be somebody who actually deserves it and has earned the right to, not somebody that WWE is just trying to get over with the crowd.

And back on Orton...I HEAVILY disagree with the notion that he is the next Rock. I'll admit I used to hate the Rock as well (this was mainly in his babyface time though, when EVERYBODY hated him) but I quickly came around to him. With Orton, that hasn't happened yet, and he's been a heel for well over a year. To me, Orton has nowhere near the mic skills as the Rock, nor the raw charisma. I agree with Blown Spot in that John Cena is probably closer to the next Rock. Not really character-wise, but just as far as being able to cut promos and getting pops from the crowd.

As for him getting pinned in tag matches and non-IC matches, look at the matches you listed. In other words, he gets pinned in matches where he won't lose too much heat. Everyone has to job at one point or another. Hell, Flair (when he wrestles) and Batista probably job just about as much as Orton. Benoit got pinned by Kane in a tag match a few weeks back, so I don't think Orton getting pinned is that big a deal. Sure, Shelton can pin him on RAW when the title isn't on the line. But on an actual PPV where the title IS on the line, Orton goes over. The guy hasn't lost a single IC match since he won the belt, and that's a pretty long time. I'm not saying a long title reign isn't good, but I guess I'm saying this: while Orton may get pinned here and there on RAW, he almost ALWAYS wins the matches he's in on PPV. Just off the top of my head he's been 3-0 on the last three.

[Edited on 7-1-2004 by the goon]


folby - 7-1-2004 at 11:10 PM

quote:
For instance, I REALLY tought Flair was going to be the first guy to beat him at WrestleMania X-8 (especially when Arn Anderson came in), but I was wrong. If someone's going to beat him at Mania, it should be somebody who actually deserves it and has earned the right to, not somebody that WWE is just trying to get over with the crowd.
Then what's the fuckin' point? Ric Flair doesn't need to end Taker's streak, he's Ric Fucking Flair. He has nothing to gain. It isn't worth ending Taker's streak unless whoever does it is someone "that the WWE is just trying to get over with the crowd." As for what PPV Taker will wrestle his last match at, I think WM is the only choice, for the simple reason that he's 15-0. As I said earlier, the power that streak has to put someone over (if booked correctly, obviously) is too good to let slide.


madiq - 7-2-2004 at 01:18 AM

I totally agree. And if you really want to give this "Legend Killer" thing the coup de grace, you put him over Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

Now, I can't understand why people here keep comparing Orton to the Rock, when the things that got him over (mic work and humor) are sorely lacking in The Rand. IF the company is trying to sell it to the masses, they've got to try harder. Or, they've got to stop trying, like with Brock Lesnar, where he stopped being Brockberg and started going toe-to-toe with Angle. The true test of whether he'll be a star is how fans respond to him in mundane situations. Chris Jericho is the new Rock, in that regard. I don't know who Orton is.


the goon - 7-2-2004 at 06:48 PM

folby, on the other hand, who the fuck is Randy Orton to go over the Taker at WrestleMania? What, do you want to see Mordecai pin him at WrestleMania 21? How about Garrison Cade? Or Johnny Nitro? I just think it's pointless to throw away that much history just to "get somebody over." What, would Randy Orton come out the next night on RAW and the crowd would look on in stunned silence and think "Oh my God...that's the guy that ended the Undertaker's WrestleMania streak! He's so tough!" Randy Orton has pinned Mick Foley TWICE (which you would think would really get him over), and I still think he sucks. Saying someone ending Taker's Mania streak will get them over is bullshit to me the same way people said that by having Triple H hold the World Title for so long, it will mean more when he loses it. 90% of wrestling fans probably wouldn't look at a Randy Orton (or any other wrestler, for that matter) any different if he beat the Taker at WrestleMania.

[Edited on 7-2-2004 by the goon]


madiq - 7-2-2004 at 08:01 PM

I disagree. Pinning the Undertaker at Wrestlemania is something that a heel could brag about for the rest of his career. Whoever did it would be in a club of one. Pinning Mick Foley is moderately impressive, but a lot of people have done it, AND he's past his prime. Defeating an undefeated guy creates heat, and doing it on as grand of a stage as Wrestlemania generates HUGE heat, especially for someone as beloved as the Undertaker. Like I said before, it puts the cherry on the top of the Legend Killer gimmick.


promoter2003 - 7-2-2004 at 08:33 PM

The Undertaker's winning streak has tremondous power to get someone over if done with the right person and the right booking. I understand both sides of the argument. He shouldn't lose just to get any type of wrestler over, but he shouldn't job the streak to someone who doesn't really need it either.

The way I see it is that Taker could have the effect of Andre the Giant's "undefeated streak of 15 years" coming to an end by Hulk Hogan for the wwf championship. Hogan didn't need the win over Andre the Giant to solidify that he was the wwf champion, but going over Andre put the cherry on top. Fans knew he was the top dog, but going over Andre made him immortal.

The wwe has to choose the right person and the right time to do this or don't bother at all. As for Orton being the one to do it, I don't think at his current state it should be done. If he happens to start to get on a roll then yes. I doubt the wwe will take a chance with ending Taker's streak for some backstage reasons like Taker being one of Vince's favourite and most successful characters of all-time. Taker stayed with the wwe through thick and thin and I think the wwe is being grateful. I think if anyone in the wwe today has to be chosen to be the one to end the streak it would be Randy Orton. Mordecai might be another one down the line for the role(won't get into why, but Bearer has something to do with it). It fits too well with the "legend killer", but as I stated with Andre I don't believe Orton is anywhere close to getting the push and actually going on to be someone bigger. That is the key. Not only defeating Taker, but taking advantage of the win.


the goon - 7-2-2004 at 08:45 PM

madiq, I'll agree with you that it would be a big thing for a heel to brag about, and ONLY that heel could brag about it, but that could only last for so long. Three years after the fact, fans would probably get tired of hearing the same guy bragging about how he ended Taker's win streak. I guess I feel it's not worth it to end a cool part of Undertaker's legacy just so a heel could get two or three months worth of heat for it. It's gone on this long (Taker's first WrestleMania was VII, and that's hard to believe), so why end it now? It's a unique aspect of the Undertaker character, since no one else has gone undefeated at WrestleMania (or any other PPV for that matter). I guess I'd just like to see the man retire with it intact.

But I was thinking...if he were to get beat, why would it have to be a heel to do it? If anything, I think a face going over a monster heel Undertaker would be much better. I personally would rather see a face beat a heel Undertaker, because a face beating an established heel usually has that passing-of-the-torch feeling (Hogan/Andre, Austin/Michaels, etc.). So if the streak WERE to be ended, I say let it be with Undertaker as a heel.

And promoter2003, you bring up some good points as well. If the streak were to be ended, I would like it to actually be for something, not just so Randy Orton can say "Hey look, I killed another legend! Boo me even more now!"

[Edited on 7-2-2004 by the goon]


promoter2003 - 7-2-2004 at 09:02 PM

I think you are right that a face going over heel Taker would use the push better. It would be better for Taker to brag and brag about being undefeated and then drop the match. Again, I really don't see anyone that really deserves the right to end Taker's streak at the moment.

[Edited on 7-2-2004 by promoter2003]


Hoodle - 7-6-2004 at 12:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ConcreteTG

Does "heel tactics" include blowing his own finisher on a regular basis, being out of position on a regular basis, and having to be coached along by people?


Blows his finisher on a regular basis? Really? I watch RAW every week, too, ya know. This is probably the most exaggerated thing that Orton-detractors try to use. Personally, I remember one occasion in particular where he whiffed on Jericho (from a tough angle). There may have been a couple of other occasions, but nothing major, IIRC.

How about the fact that JERICHO BLEW HIS LIONSAULT FINISHER REGULARLY FOR LIKE THE ENTIRE SUMMER of 2001? Nooooo . . . we forget that little period in Jericho's history and exaggerate the 2 or 3 cases where Orton has had trouble.

I also love the little theory that Orton "doesn't know how to take an over-the-top-bump." What he does is make the bump look less generic and much more painful. It's called "variation" - but some people like to pretend its an f-up because they are under the impression that all moves should look like they were pressed out of a generic moveset factory. (or they just wanna complain about Orton.) If HBK did the same thing he would be lauded for athleticism. Orton does it and it's an f-up.

As for the coaching - when you wrestle vets, they are likely to call the matches. I don't think that's out of the ordinary at all. At least I would HOPE not. People also exaggerate this. A few weeks ago when Flair called out "C'mon Randy, make the save!" it got turned by some poster on this forum into "God Dammit Randy, will you help me or not?" Perfect example of IWC exaggeration. What's more, the comment sounded kayfabe to me, but there's no way to prove that one way or another.

quote:
Look who he wrestles most of the time - the 10+ year veterans who carry him to make SURE he looks good.


He got a good match out of Edge on RAW a couple months ago that had the crowd on the edge of their seats. He had a very good match with Shelton at Bad Blood. Either you're wrong, or he's learned enough from the vets at this point to hold his own. Either way your point is moot.

quote:
And to the idiots who chanted for Randy at Bad Blood - they were one section over from where I was sitting, I could hear sarcasm


I'm sure they were ALL being sarcastic. I'm sure they were ALL sarcastic the next night on RAW. I'm sure they were ALL sarcastic chanting "Randy" during his IC match with Edge on RAW. I'm sure your perception is right. I'm sure I detect sarcasm in this paragraph. Look, there are a lot of internet fans nowadays, and I'm sure there were a number of them "one section over from you." That's not sarcasm.

Using his alleged backstage attitude as a scapegoat to disliking his performances is petty and whiny and not worthy of point-counterpoint. Don't be bitter and jealous.




General comments:

You know what I like most about Randy? When he gets his opponent in a chinlock or some variation - he doesn't just sit there like a lump. He grinds agressively and leans his body weight into his opponent and makes the chinlock look painful.

I also can't stand the attitude that "all chinlocks are evil" and that any hold that isn't a submission is "a resthold." Randy wrestles a sweet blend of old school and contemporary wrestling styles, and I appreciate that.

I also appreciate that he isn't musclebound and thus can sell a stiff shot like no one else in the WWE. Like NO ONE else.

I'm not saying Orton is God or anything, and I think the comparisons to the Rock are a huge stretch, but the kid is good and will probably turn into "excellent." At the very least, Vince is finally pushing someone new who is competent and and willing to learn (and tough as hell) and isn't a big lumbering oaf so chill and just enjoy it while it lasts.

Honestly I think the majority of Orton hate is a result of "DiCaprio Syndrome" where you have a successful guy who isn't as bad as a lot of very vocal people would have you believe and is also not as good as some very vocal people would have you believe and the result is a lot of bickering and exaggeration and general silliness.

Did he deserve the push he got? Eh, probably not. So what? He's good NOW, and that's all I care about. Like almost anything, the rational answer is usually somewhere between the two extremes.

Finally, blaming Randy Orton for Creative's decision to push him is I cannot spell 'ridiculous' and the least credible of all the claims Orton critics try to make. Don't be bitter, resentful people.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Hoodle]