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RAW thoughts 8/11/03
phansett - 8-12-2003 at 04:31 AM

Okay show again this week. Nothing great, but not much bad either, IMO.

Jericho is so gold on the mic. I don't want him to lose his hair, but I think he could make it work for him at least as well as Angle played it last year.

I thought the Storm/Goldust exchange wasn't as crisp this week. I'll still hold out hope, but I've got a funny feeling that if this doesn't pan out, Storm could be released. I think that would be insanely stupid, but I can see him on TNA in 3 months. Maybe at least there he will have some nice work-rate matchups.

How can I take Goldberg serious when WWE puts him in a janitor's closet for the duration of the show?

I guess its nice having 'Berg align with the other faces before the Chamber match, but this whole 'friendship' just wreaks of Michael's trademark insincerity. This could be a nice little I cannot spell 'feud' down the road.

The RVD 5* on the chair was a beautiful move. Great timing on both he and Kane's part - and some nice camera work to boot.

What did you all think?

EDIT: I didn't edit this post's content, I just tossed in a date stamp in the title. — ModSquad.

[Edited on 8-20-2003 by ModSquad]


The National Dudley - 8-12-2003 at 04:44 AM

Ack. Didn't Jeb already post a thread about this? I hope I didn't post on the wrong thread.

Could someone clear this up for me?


ModSquad - 8-12-2003 at 04:47 AM

The RAW Chat thread announces that people are chatting in the chat room. To get there, go to the main page and select "interact" from the top menu. Meanwhile, just cut-and-paste your thoughts into this thread, and I'll delete your post in the Raw Chat thread.


The National Dudley - 8-12-2003 at 04:50 AM

Thanks so much for clearing that up, ModSquad.


Damien - 8-12-2003 at 05:58 AM

I liked the Flair-Goldberg-Orton match, nothing technically great but it was interesting with Orton as the ref. Jericho was the MVP of Raw again this week, I'm finding Test alot more entertaining lately, went to piss during the Dudley's La Resistance match, Christian needs his old music and pyro back.


The National Dudley - 8-12-2003 at 06:39 AM

Well, I thought it was another strong Raw. Maybe Raw can end SD!'s streak of wins in the Battle of the Brands? We'll see.

-The finish was a bit shady. Hey, Michaels counting the three was novel, in a Stone-cold-"Screw the rules" kind of way but I actually wanted to see how Goldberg could get out of it...and if he even could period. A large part of me was hoping Goldberg would lose, if only to make Ric Flair finally look like the former 16 (17?) time world champ the WWE keeps reminding us he is. Oh well. The finish was still entertaining. I hope Raw tries to show Goldberg actually has some weaknesses though.

-Good show to Bill showing how bad his knee was throughout the match, but I thought it strange when he kept grabbing and hobbling when he knew Ric would just bounce off the ropes and hit it. It looked ridiculous. He just stood there and took it and didn't try to punch or anything. I'm all for giving Goldberg the benefit of the doubt when it comes to putting on decent matches, but stuff like that makes me grind my teeth.

-Gail Kim's promo was awesome. I couldn't have asked for a better explanation. And the match was damn good too. Those fans can kiss my ass. "You fucked up". Gimme a break. The spot wasn't that bad.

-Christian showed up with the IC title to Booker's music, which was cool. I would've liked his match with Spike to be a bit more squash though. Christian looked a bit too fragile. Looks like we'll be getting a new feud for the title here soon, which is a plus.

-JR is back and sounded great. Especially when Kane was gonna chokeslam Bischoff. Good stuff. I didn't like how he just stared at Coach, expecting him and us to understand what was going down. JR...what a dick.

-Well, hopefully, Kane is free of the paddywagon thing and Bischoff is gonna let him do what he wants now. The heat between him and RVD has just intensified.

-Ugh, I didn't enjoy Nash on the mic one bit. "You don't tell me what to do". Oh boy, let's sound a bit more like a third-grader, Kevin. He just seemed way too relaxed and downbeat for his attitude to add any drama to the problems between him and Jericho. Just like Goldberg, I'm all for giving Nash a chance to impress me but he didn't tonight. Even his descripting of the pictures was a bit lame. But I liked the inclusion of the clippers. Jericho was great though with the showing off of his hair. Lovely.

-Shouldn't they keep the hair v. hair match for Unforgiven? Ah, well. It'll be something to see next week. Looking forward to it. Should pull some ratings. Maybe.

-The tag title situation got a bit more interesting. I feared they would drag the nationality cheap heat into it even more with the Dudley's defending America's honor and they did just that. Well, it was done in a bit different way, with the wine and the covering of the Dudleys, so I'm not too disappointed. But regardless, the end result is the same: instead of the Dudley's defending the honor of the tag titles from inferior champs (like they should have said from the beginning), now they're defending the honor of their country from an inferior one. We've seen it all before, and done better.

-Eric v. Shane is official. The contract thing was kind of a tacky way to do it though. But it served it's purpose in Austin outwitting Bischoff.

-The Lance/Goldust bit was priceless. I laughed too hard at the "Ass-ass-ass-ass-ascension" part. Oh, man. This is gonna be good.

-The Hurricane/SHIT part was a bit hokey but the whole gimmick of the Hurricane is hokey so it was forgivable. I hope they come up with funnier stuff though, maybe involving superstars instead of old ladies.

Anything else that I forgot to note? Don't think so.

Overall, great show. Good two-hours.


mr_mysterious2 - 8-12-2003 at 06:56 AM

I thought Raw was pretty weak this week. The funniest moment on the show was Goldberg "Coming out of the closet", that was sweet.

The SHIT thing is really inane, I usually like stupid WWE humour (I absolutely loved it when the Big Bossman showed up at Big Show's father's funeral), but this one is too unfunny even for me.

The best thing on Raw right now, the Kane storyline, wasn't spectacular this week, as a result, the show didn't have any real high points.

The second best thing on Raw right now, Chris Jericho, was the best thing on Raw this week. I'd love to see him come away with the title at Summerslam.


The National Dudley - 8-12-2003 at 07:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mr_mysterious2
The funniest moment on the show was Goldberg "Coming out of the closet", that was sweet.


Yeah, that was funny as hell. I can't believe they did that. I smacked my forehead.


Damien - 8-12-2003 at 07:57 AM

Hell, they should bring back the Bossman yet again and have him... aww nevermind.


cpdevine1 - 8-12-2003 at 01:20 PM

I liked RAW alot. Even the throw away segments had their point. Some may dislike the whole Dudley/Resistance thing, but at least they kept it short. They had to have something on the show, and rather than sit through a boring match and get the same ending, a cheap shot and beat down right at the start is pretty good.

Good quick explanation of the Booker T thing. Herniated disc. So he was hurt, but he had enough to lose on a house show. Of course they could have just said he lost on a house show when he never really did. Most people would be none the wiser. Another thing I question, if Booker was good enough to put on a match at a house show, couldn't they have done the match at RAW instead? Either way, works in my books. I was actually damn impressed with the match that Spike and Christian had. Kept me watching. Lots of near falls. I knew that Spike wouldn't win, but it had me thinking for a minute, being the debut of Spike TV and all.

I also liked the Goldberg match. Wasn't the standard 3 minute match with punch, knee, powerslam, spear, jackhammer, pin. I probably just did a full recap of most of his matches. Anyway, I thought it was really well done. May have been better if they didn't have the no dq stip so Goldberg couldn't touch Orton. Giving Orton the ability to give a DQ if Goldberg looked at him wrong would have stacked the odds even more. Still could have had the same ending and everything.

Drop Rosie, S.H.I.T isn't working IMO. It isn't horrible, and Rosie can work, but it won't be as a Hero. Comedy stuff aside, good match with Hurricane and Mack.

The only thing I didn't like was the Highlight Reel. Jericho aside, becuase he is great on the mic, Nash is just really horrible. He brought the whole segment down. He is more boring to listen too than Lance Storm. Which is a shame, because he wasn't always like that. Just glad I didn't see Brutus the Barber's hedgeclippers. Chris "The Barber" Jericho anyone?

Oh, and drop the Kane house arrest thing. If there are no charges against him, then he shouldn't have the cops hanging off of him across the country. Now I have an idea for Kane, if they had him in a straight jacket and under psychological observation or something along those lines, then bring up some little lackey from OVW to be a shrink following him around with a couple orderlies, I would accept it more.


[Edited on 8-12-2003 by cpdevine1]


Blown Spot - 8-12-2003 at 04:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cpdevine1 Oh, and drop the Kane house arrest thing. If there are no charges against him, then he shouldn't have the cops hanging off of him across the country. Now I have an idea for Kane, if they had him in a straight jacket and under psychological observation or something along those lines, then bring up some little lackey from OVW to be a shrink following him around with a couple orderlies, I would accept it more.


I'm in total agreement. The police escort thing is just stupid IMO. Especially since JR, just stated for the record, he is not pressing charges.


Stormtrooper - 8-12-2003 at 04:42 PM

Jericho CANNOT loose his hair.

PLEASE just ditch Rosey and let Hurricane and Christian feud.

thanks Vince, 'preciate it.


RatherbeinChyna - 8-12-2003 at 04:58 PM

Gail Kim = Terrible


eoghann - 8-12-2003 at 05:02 PM

RatherbeinChyna = one note idiot


Stormtrooper - 8-12-2003 at 06:10 PM

bet you're REALLY hoping they add a 'change username' feature soon huh Chyna?.


whyme - 8-12-2003 at 06:45 PM

maybe its just that i am not much of a "smark" but raw has continued to be entertaining to me.

i love how stiener just yells things at people during his match. it makes me laugh everytime

hurricane/rosey and stom/goldust are more entertaining then ever.

cant wait to see the hair vs. hair match next week. nashole was pretty funny and he just provided the internet folks with a new word to call big daddy cool. lol

kane should stop talking and just kick ass.

elimination chamber is gonna be awesome!!!

is ready for summerslam!!!


Pistol Pez - 8-12-2003 at 06:50 PM

All this, and nobody mentions Molly's sweet double cross of Gail??????? THAT was the best segment of the night.

And Goldberg (you know, that selfish untalented hack who hurts people) sold the leg very well. Even when he was executing his power (you know . . . boring) offense, he was planting on his "good" leg. Benoit does that and we'd see a thread here on what a genius he is.


cpdevine1 - 8-12-2003 at 06:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RatherbeinChyna
Gail Kim = Terrible


Rick, give this guy the CtB spotlight. This post was thoughtful, insightful, and in depth. If more people would post like this what a wonderful world this would be. There is nothing more you can add to this post. All that while not being too wordy. Who needs to clutter up a post with stupid stuff like explanations and examples? Sentence structure is overrated anyway.


[Edited on 8-12-2003 by cpdevine1]


Pistol Pez - 8-12-2003 at 07:20 PM

And, oh yeah, Ric Flair has never looked more like a short, old, overweight, over the hill wrestler than he did last night.


OO Kyle - 8-12-2003 at 08:40 PM

Maybe they were using Fisheye lenses. Rico looked like he'd just swallowed Crash Holly whole. And speaking of Hollys, Molly's new outfit isn't exactly 'slimming', although she's still the only Diva I'd want to marry.


MysteriousDr.X - 8-12-2003 at 09:17 PM

Jericho rules the known world. I wish (I know it won't happen) that he could win back the title. And I disagree with all the Nash-hating. I love his understated style. Everyone can't just yell all the time. That gets stale. I like the fucking enormous guy who talks calmly because HE CAN. It makes sense, and it's a change of pace.

Rico did look like he was on hormone shots, or something. Bloated. Yuck. Although, he was still a better looking woman than Ms. Jackie. The old Rico was irritating. The new Rico is downright god-awful. He was the only thing I actively disliked.

Even La Resistance had a little more fire under their asses this week.

ratherbeinchyna...I'm just glad that other people are starting to see the inanity of his posts. I got into a big back-and-forth with him about his complete dismissal of any female wrestlers once - I'm glad to see that maybe I wasn't the only one who found his act obnoxious.

I disagree with the hating on Rosie, too. The guy is finally worth watching. He's selling the gimmick, man, you have to give it to him. He isn't just the boring ass big dude anymore.

I thought the overall product was excellent tonight. Very watchable, very entertaining.


RatherbeinChyna - 8-12-2003 at 09:48 PM

Gail Kim = Terrible
'nuff said.

Molly had a good match..I have stated before that i think she is very talented although I dont find it entertaining I do not deny the fact that she has some talent.

Lets let Mr. Scooter weigh in with his thoughts.

"- Women’s title: Molly Holly v. Trish Stratus v. Gail Kim. Funny how there was big boos backstage for Gail’s interview, but no reaction to her entrance. Trish attacks both to start and gets a spinebuster on Kim for two. Thesz Press and they catfight, and then Trish botches a headscissors in the corner and gets yanked out by Molly. Gail then attempts a pescado and blows THAT. That could have been REALLY bad for her. The heels double-suplex Trish and stomp away, but Molly hangs Trish in the corner, and then turns on Gail with a clothesline and gets the pin at 2:25. ˝*"

I am not proud to have the same stance as Scooter but still he is stating the facts.

As far as some of you are concerned, read some of my posts in the past if you think I am a one trick pony. Unless your name is #tcb or one of his 34 other posts I dont attack people personally, unless they attack me. The topic of this thread is "RAW thoughts" , I posted mine. Disagree with what I said but to say
"RatherbeinChyna = one note idiot
"

and "...I'm just glad that other people are starting to see the inanity of his posts"
just shows your inabilty to accept others opinions.


RatherbeinChyna - 8-12-2003 at 09:53 PM

And cp I cant tell if you are with me or against me (must be my lack of a brain) but If you are saying something about me not saying more please review the thread; Gail Kim =Terrible

http://www.onlineonslaught.com/OOForums/viewthread.php?tid=5102


The National Dudley - 8-12-2003 at 11:35 PM

While I do agree that the skit with Hurricane and Rosie last night was not the best, I still think they could pull some funny shit out of this. They just need to integrate some other superstars like DustStorm did last night, rather than the another painfully obvious skit.

And I have consistently enjoyed the women's division for quite some time now. There were times when it was the best and most coherent thing on Raw. Yeah, Gail's push to the title came too soon but now everything seems to right. We've got a reason for Gail to hate Trish and Molly in the middle to make the matches from average to good. Just give a Trish rebuke to Gail's statements and I'll be happy.

And I do agree that the women are pushed too soon, except maybe Victoria, who was damn impressing during her feud with Trish. I've always been one to think that since the women are usually lighter and thinner than the men, couldn't they jump around like Rey Mysterio or Kidman with the right amount of training?


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 05:10 AM

put Storm and Hurricane back togther and PUSH them, his name's Lance Storm for god's sake - could he be any more superhero?.


Krydor - 8-13-2003 at 07:17 AM

Good Stuff, that Raw. The Main Even was well executed. People havea hard time booing Flair. Stupid no DQ stipulation! The Nature Boy was robbed! Damn you Micheals!

Molly could be the best person in the chick division. Screws everyone over to retain! I wound the tape back to see how close Kim came to breaking her neck, and it was damn close. Are the ropes lower in OVW? She didn't even clear 'em.

The Highlight Reel was fantastic, until Nash opened his mouth. The crowd wanted to cheer Y2J, you could sense it. After all, Nash was making fun of a hairstyle he shares with Chris.

The force tells me that there is a coach heel turn in the works. When it does happen, it may well be the funniest moment on Raw. Speaking of which, I enjoyed Goldstorm.

Nothing really crappy. Watchable show, all around.


Thom - 8-13-2003 at 05:45 PM

Dammit, I keep missing StormDust… I can’t believe nobody has complained about Coach stating that Booker T was already injured prior to his match against Christian. Sure, many of us on the net already knew, but it just kinda killed it for me when he contradicted Christian’s claim of injuring Booker. I guess kayfabe really is dead.

For Gail, yeah, that pescado was UGLY. As I put in the Gail Kim = Terrible thread, I want to like her – she’s got a unique look, and is (for the most part) able to put a little zest on some basic moves. However, I believe she really does need some more work in OVW or wherever. When she landed on the pescado, my reaction was, “Oh, shit- she just killed herself.” Not really killed, but still… I was glad to see that she was able to continue.

And yes, Molly is, IMO, the best female wrestler on the roster. I’d probably actually put her as one of the top 5 on the entire RAW roster. While she may not have the strength of most of the male wrestlers, she actually can put on a better match than most of them, IMO. And Pez was spot on – when Molly clotheslined Gail, I was like, “Oh, yeah, baby!”

Call me crazy, and I know you will, but I actually dig the Rosie’s da SHIT stuff. Sure, it’s only filler really, but you need some filler, and I’ve found myself laughing with the bits, and looking forward to see what they’ll come up next with the SHIT. Ya know, though – at the end of him helping the lady cross the street, and Hurricane stating that “No good deed goes unpunished,” I was actually anticipating Rosie saying, “Whasupwitdat?” That would have TOTALLY made that segment for me.

As far as the highlight reel goes, I have to agree with the general feeling on this one – Jericho was the man (yet again), but Nashole was almost putting me to sleep. Yes, X, I like it when guys don’t just yell all the time, but ugh, that promo was horrible. Perhaps it’s because the E scripts the promos, as opposed to just letting him cut loose? Maybe they’re trying too hard to push him as a face? Please, WWE, let Nash have his “Outsider” personality again.

Again, Pez got another of the little things right – Goldberg sells a leg injury well, and we hear jack shit about it (actually- Dudley even complained about it). For everyone who likes to complain about Goldberg, you now owe the man a little slack.

That’s about it for me!


OO Kyle - 8-13-2003 at 05:55 PM

Eh. I must be missing all this "Goldberg bashing" that folks keep talking about. Doesn't really seem like people are Hating on him the way they do on other wrestlers.

I myself hate the bastard because he copped out of House Show main event that I drove 350 bloody miles to see.

But he CAN have good matches. I thought his match against Christian was awesome. Sadly, his first match vs the Rock was one of the worst PPV matches in recent history.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 06:04 PM

"I myself hate the bastard because he copped out of House Show main event that I drove 350 bloody miles to see"

that's more than one mile for every second the match would probably have gone for.


bigfatgoalie - 8-13-2003 at 06:11 PM

Goldberg has good matches with good workers...but that doesn't make him good. The prroblem I always had is that his value was around a streaak you could give to ANY big guy. Other then the streak he has been in crappy angles, and in matches where the quality is determined by the other guy.

On RAW, Orton made the match...not Goldberg. You could have had the match be HBK vs Flair and have RVD, Hurricane, or even Lance Storm do the forced 3 count thing and the match would have been just as good.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 06:15 PM

You've got to be worried when i guy's best match was against DDP.


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 06:22 PM

Stormtrooper, what, exactly, should I be worried about?

Goalie, they tried to give Rodney Mack a streak and he still couldn't even get X-Pac heat. Why isn't he a mega huge star? Did they pull the plug too soon? Would Rodney Mack be as big as Goldberg if he had 110 wins in a row? Please, do tell.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 06:26 PM

Goldberg, his best mactch imo and it's not like I'm a huge fan or anything was against DDP. Well, non-squash match i mean. Seeing he's worked with Jericho, Christian and Bret that's pretty sad.


bigfatgoalie - 8-13-2003 at 06:26 PM

you know what...Goldberg had a lot longer of a run as "guy who wins without pops" then Mack did...

Also, at the time of the streak, Goldberg didn't have a gimmick revolving around him being held back for being Jewish...

There's other things too...the stogges in WCW hyped how awesome Goldberg was...they piped in Goldberg chants...and they gave him a pretty cool entrance...

In all honesty, Mack could have been pushed to main event status if he got a Goldberg like push...


Blown Spot - 8-13-2003 at 06:31 PM

So all the hype surrounding Goldberg is just that... hype? You mean his popularity is not undeniable? That all the pops and cheers and chants he got in WCW were manufactured?

We're all just being duped?


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 06:34 PM

I guess so.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 06:36 PM

well I think the "Goooooooldberg" chant was part of the song origionally(much like the Hogan song that was used for the Superstars cartoon) and after a whil ethey toned it down when the fans started doing it, but if you watch WCW PPV's from Canada you can tell they've cranked it up to 11.


Blown Spot - 8-13-2003 at 06:37 PM

There is no way in hell Rodney Mack would be as popular as Goldberg with the same push.

That's just absurd.


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 06:40 PM

Of course, he can, Blown Spot. Goldberg wasn't held down from being Jewish, and neither is Mack. That means Mack's winning streak would have made him the biggest star of all-time! OF ALL-TIME!!!

So, DDP had a better match than Goldberg than Jericho and Bret Hart did. So, he could accomplish something that neither of the wonderboys could do. There's no need to hate on him for it.

[Edited on 8-13-2003 by Slade]


MrJustinB - 8-13-2003 at 06:40 PM

Actually, Goldberg picked up pretty fast after, say the Mongo "feud". One of the problems, actaully, was that fans were picking on him, and WCW still wanted to use the piped in sound. That's why at times you got a sort of "skipping" sound during his chants. The crowds weren't perfect with the piped chan, or vice versa.

That was how I understood it to be, anyways.

At any rate, don't you all think that part of Mack's problem is WWE's "ADD Child"-like symptoms. I'm not a huge fan of Mack (or Goldberg, for that matter), but they seem to give up on things quicker than they used to. How can the company expect a gimmick like Mack's to pick up if you give upon it after a few months?


bigfatgoalie - 8-13-2003 at 06:51 PM

so outside of the streak, what has Goldberg done?

seriously, outside of him winning the world title from Hogan, when did everybody have to see a Goldberg match?

And did you guys not see Brock get the Goldberg push? the streak made Goldberg, and once that was over he really had/has nothing to offer wrestling.

Unless you like his use of the word ass.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 06:54 PM

Kurt had a streak too, but not with the monster thing of Brock/Goldberg


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 06:58 PM

I have never felt that I had to watch a Goldberg match. I have never felt that I had to watch a Chris Benoit match either. So what's your point?

Yes, I saw Brock Lesnar get the Golberg-push, as you refered to it. Again, what's your point? Do you mean to tell me that once he lost to The Big Show, he became a worthless talent and that he no longer has anything to offer to the world of professional wrestling?

And don't steal my bit, reekazoid. Only I may make fun of Golberg for his fixation with the word "ass".

[Edited on 8-13-2003 by Slade]


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 07:03 PM

"Yes, I saw Brock Lesnar get the Golberg-push, as you refered to it. Again, what's your point? Do you mean to tell me that once he lost to The Big Show, he became a worthless talent and that he no longer has anything to offer to the world of professional wrestling?"

No, but after Nash putting himself over Goldberg he lost a LOT of his appeal.


bigfatgoalie - 8-13-2003 at 07:03 PM

See, the difference is, once Angle and Brock had finished of streak angles, they still were valuable...Goldberg in WCW after he lost to Nash was just there.

His contributions on the mic and in the ring in WCW and the WWE post streak have been nothing of note.


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 07:12 PM

How was Lesnar still valuable? Also, how was Goldberg not valuabe and just 'there'? Please, do tell.


Stormtrooper - 8-13-2003 at 07:16 PM

Lesner is still valuable because a) he's BROCK b) he main evented many PPV's including WM after his streak ended and c) he's BROCK.

Goldberg really never did anything of note after his loss.


Blown Spot - 8-13-2003 at 07:21 PM

We're entering Singled out or Crashing the Boards territory here.

Goldberg offered us that intangable something akin to an aura of invincibility. He looked the part and he sold it well. It was no nonsense, in your face, what you see is what you get, ass kicking. A stark contrast to what others brought to WCW at the time. WCW and WWF tried to recreate that by bringing in Shoot fighters similar in style but none of them captured that same appeal Goldberg seemed to possess, save maybe Ken Shamrock. I hate to bring this up but, I think much of the Goldberg backlash started after what happened to Bret Hart. I hated and I MEAN HATED what happened to Hart and at first laid much of the blame at the feet of Bill but have sense softened my stance.

No Bill is not a workrate god, but the sheep seem to like him. I do to, at times.

Rodney Mack does not exhibit the same qualities as Goldberg. Rodney does not play that same role. He is more akin to Bill DeMott than Goldberg. The White boy challenge is not the same streak as Goldberg's.

Now if you want to argue if Goldberg got the same push as Rodney Mack, would he be as popular - The Gentile Challenge? I don't know.

All I'm saying is Goldberg's popularity is not due entirely to his push.


Thom - 8-13-2003 at 07:21 PM

Another thought… Jericho was clean shaven last night. Why should we give a rat’s ass about him making the challenge Nash’s hair vs. Y2J’s facial hair? I guess that’s the point, but it just seemed rather lame. Of course, that’s the only thing I have to question in regards to Jericho’s comments last night.


Thom - 8-13-2003 at 07:29 PM

Trooper and Spot had posted after I started my reply, so here’s a question. It’s more for Trooper to answer, but of course, if anyone has an intelligent answer, feel free… Actually, it’s really not for anyone to answer – it’s largely rhetoric.

Supposedly, Goldberg did nothing of note after doing the job to Nash back in WCW. Is that Bill’s fault, or WCW’s? I mean, if the company decides to do nothing with him creatively, you can’t blame him for not continuing to be HUGELY popular.


Slade - 8-13-2003 at 07:33 PM

quote:
Lesner is still valuable because a) he's BROCK b) he main evented many PPV's including WM after his streak ended and c) he's BROCK.


Absolutely brilliant! You've persuaded me with your flawless argument. What really won me over was how you used the same premise twice. I still had doubts after I saw the first time, but you really hit it home for me by repeating it as premise number three. Not only that, but by proclaiming that Brock Lesnar is valuabe because he is Brock Lesnar, I sincerely doubt that anybody could ever question what his worth is ever again. Brock Lesnar is valuable because he is Brock Lesnar is the single greatest line of reason that I have ever encounter in my entire life. You've opened my eyes to a whole new world of intellectualism, one in which I can be a much wiser man because of the examples which you've set. And for that I can only thank you, Stormtrooper. Thank you, so very, very much.


bigfatgoalie - 8-13-2003 at 07:37 PM

Jericho and Nash were both entertaining on RAW...so was Orton, Goldust, Storm, and a slew of others. In Goldberg's limited mic time last night, he came off as...ummm...there. By the same token, a guy like Jericho can lose to everyone on the WWE roster and use the same mic time to stay hugely over.

Also, look at RVD...he stayed over and popular even after he was beaten by Triple H for the Raw title last year...staying popular is a little bit of having stuff to do, and a whole lot of having an established character. If you persona iss so much so that you can't lose to stay over...then there are issues.

Oddly enough RAW and Smackdown both have a lot of guys who can stay popular or hated without being in major feuds...it's part of having an established character or gimmick.

Hey, if Lance hadn't gone through the "boring" stuff and have a history of being serious, would him reading "ass" a bunch of times off a cue card be 1/4 as funny as it was on RAW???

And actually, the one thing about this RAW that I liked (and Rick made note of) was that everything had some sort of story. Not everyone used there time to be entertaining while telling a story...but at least the effort was there.


MrJustinB - 8-13-2003 at 09:32 PM

Two things...

I think, personally, that Brock brings more to the table, wrestling wise, and is as good on the mic. Perhaps a tad behind charisma wise. But, Brock does seem to be closer to a full package than Goldberg was. Hence, when his streak ended, he had something more to fall back on. Of course, the point is made earlier, WCW made the mistake of basically doing nothing with Goldberg after his "big loss" and then lost all momentum with him. Whereas, WWE has done more to continue Brock's character past "the guy who used to have a streak".

And two, awesome flame, Slade. As many times in the past, you are my hero.


nilesanderson - 8-14-2003 at 02:09 AM

Yeah, Stormtrooper. You really have to learn how to back up your arguements a bit better. Saying "because he's BROCK" twice or saying the Undertaker is fat when he's not makes you sound like a massive boob. But what do I know, I had tried to kidnap a monkey over the internet.


Stormtrooper - 8-14-2003 at 04:01 AM

Well, thank you Oscar Wilde.

I thought that from my "he's Brock" statement that it wiould be obvious that I was refering to his amatuer background, agility, mat skill, etc(the things that make him 'Brock' which Goldberg has none of, well the superkick is pretty agile for a guy his size I suppose. Yes Goldberg does look cool doing his 5-6 moves(the Gorilla press/Powerslam being a personal favourite) and he does have the total badass charisma to him when put in the right matches but he's really not in the same league as Lesner talent wise.

Thom: Fair point that it was WCW's(or more specifically Nash's) fault Goldberg lost so much of his draw/mystique after his loss, they did totally drop the ball completely while he just kept doing what he'd been doing before he bacame the victum of politics. Although him punching through that limo window was his fault and almost killed the character in my opionion, yes he still got big pops but as buyrates and ticket sales proove it was more of a "hey, it's Goldberg" than "we'd pay to see you" variety - but that's just my take.


Stormtrooper - 8-14-2003 at 04:03 AM

how the hell did that smiley get there?, aw crap.


Slade - 8-14-2003 at 08:52 PM

I'm sorry. I had no idea that the saying "He's BROCK" could stand as a blanket statement for having a background as a successful amateur wrestling, for being very agile and for having impeccable mat wrestling skills. Now that I have been made aware of that, you're stating that Brock Lesnar is a valuable asset to professional wrestling because he's BROCK is an acceptable defense of Brock Lesnar is superior to Bill Goldberg.

Therefore in the future, when somebody like Mr. Justin B. or Niles Anderson asks me, "Why do you think Shelton Benjamin is a valuable member of the WWE roster?" I will reply, "Shelton Benjamin is a valuable member of the WWE roster because he's BROCK."

Conversely, when somebody like Jeb Lund or Mysterious Dr. X asks me, "Why do you think Mark Henry is not a valuable member of the WWE roster?" I will reply, "Mark Henry is not a valuable member of the WWE roster because he's not BROCK." That ought to indicate that he does not possess the qualities of the expression "he's BROCK."

I assume that from now on when I use this statement to justify my resons for thinking Shelton Benjamin is a valuable wrestler and Mark Henry is not that everybody will know what I mean when I say, "Shelton Benjamin is valuable because he's BROCK," and "Mark Henry is not valuable because he's not BROCK."

Moreover, after reading my pro-Benjamin argument and my anti-Henry I expect that some may agree and some may disagree. For example, Justin may agree with me and say, "Slade, you are right, Benjamin is BROCK. Because he is BROCK, I think he's worth staying in the WWE." However, Niles might disagree, and so he would say something like, "Slade you are a dumb wanker. Benjamin is not BROCK. He may have certain BROCK-like qualities, but those qualities aren't strong enough to be BROCK. I don't like wrestlers that aren't BROCK. They all suck and I feel like puking every time I am forced to sit through a match with one or more wrestlers that are not BROCK. Like I said, Benjamin is not BROCK, so he doesn't deserve to be in the WWE." And after I read this, Niles and I would probably get into a very heated debate over whether or not Shelton Benjamin is BROCK.

The same thing could be said for Jeb or Dr. X. One of them might agree that Mark Henry is not BROCK, but one of them may disagree with that assessment. Of course we all know that he who might disagree would be wrong, because Mark Henry is not an accomplished amateur wrestler.

In any event, Stormtrooper, I feel I should thank you for having told me what being BROCK is. Now that I know, I will not be embarassed in the future when somebody tells me that Kurt Angle is BROCK and I reply by saying something like, "No he isn't, you stupid cunt." I will now know the difference, and will also be able to use the term in the future. So, thanks, Stormtrooper. Again, you have taught me something new that is incredibly valuable. Thank you, Stormtrooper, thank you.

[Edited on 8-15-2003 by Slade]


OO Kyle - 8-14-2003 at 10:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slade

Therefore in the future, when somebody like Mr. Justin B. or Niles Anderson asks me, "Why do you think Shelton Benjamin is a valuable member of the WWE roster?" I will reply, "Shelton Benjamin is a valuable member of the WWE roster because he's BROCK."



LOL.

Slade, despite consistantly having some of the worst .sigs in the history of the Internet, you are one funny MO-FO.


MrJustinB - 8-15-2003 at 01:36 AM

Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

I bow to your abilities to flame, and your BROCK-like strength in making people look foolish.


doublee - 8-15-2003 at 02:34 AM

Slade is a relevant, dare I say, valuable member of these boards because he is BROCK!!!!


Bonestein - 8-15-2003 at 05:17 AM

Slade, that was pure OWNED. I hereby pass a piece of my torch to you as the King of OO Flamers.

Maybe we should get a new name for that though.


Bonestein - 8-15-2003 at 10:56 AM

Oh, and to add a Raw thought...

I thought Goldberg was fucking excellent in his match with Flair. He sold the figure four like no one has in years. Give him credit for at least TRYING to adjust from the unhurtable machine to wrestler guy. And as far as I can remember in my whiskey haze, he never blew any spots, nor gave anyone a career-ending concussion.


Stormtrooper - 8-15-2003 at 05:08 PM

if I wanted to talk to a pedantic asshole I'd just u2u Jeb.


eoghann - 8-15-2003 at 05:10 PM

Oh now thats not fair!

Jeb may be an asshole, but he's not pedantic! He's just very precise thats all.



eoghann - 8-15-2003 at 05:12 PM

As a matter of fact Bones, I agree with you about Goldberg. I was mildly impressed with how he kept on selling the leg injury as the match progressed.

I could mention RVD here, but we all know what would happen then.


rasslinjunkie - 8-15-2003 at 05:29 PM

Very good, Slade. Excellent roasting. Now, one question: what in the BLOODY HELL jumped up your ass? Jesus! Are you just honing your talents?

For the record, Stormtrooper, I understood you perfectly. Brock is valuable because he is BrockfuckingLesnar, and he walked into this company with enough amateur clout to earn respect from even the most jaded fans. He came into the company with an established reputation, both in amateur wrestling and OVW, and has since put on some truly fantastic matches.
Therefore, BROCK has earned respect.
Meanwhile, Bill Goldberg was a WCW-created fantasy, who has taken a good while doing anything of value. I give him credit for improvement, but the difference is quite simple: Brock really is a monster, while Goldberg is a fairy tale.

Point being, you knew EXACTLY what he meant by "he's BROCK," so don't be such a fussy cow about it, Slade. We all know you can mock and destroy; quit showing off. Or at least find a legitimate gripe.

*passes Slade a Midol*


salmonjunkie - 8-15-2003 at 06:05 PM

RJ, you're so BROCK and you don't even know it.


Pistol Pez - 8-16-2003 at 04:42 AM

If Chris Jericho had a huge winning streak of walking to the ring and beating jobbers in under 2 minutes, no promos, no storylines, just wrestle Meng 67 times in a year, he would be . . . a phenomenon???????????? He would be like Tatanka, but blonde. JR could talk about "the undefeated Canadian." Maybe someone could steal his hockey jersey or something.

So, because Goldberg would not be over on the strength of his interviews alone, he is a worthless wrestler? Jericho couldn't pull off the monster gimmick any more than Goldberg could pull off the cocky, smart aleck heel. There's room for both in the WWF. Learn to expand your tastes and you'll be happier.


MrJustinB - 8-16-2003 at 05:24 AM

I'm trying to picture Goldberg as a cocky heel. That might actually be pretty cool.


nilesanderson - 8-16-2003 at 02:00 PM

Hey RJ, I think Slade's point was that "He's Brock" is not a valid arguement, even if it has those undertones. What if someone who didn't know about Brock Lesnar's amateur wrestling past read that? He'd be thinking "what the fuck? what the hell is that supposed to mean?". Once Stormtrooper elaborated on what he meant, his arguement became valid. But he should have done that in the first place. "He's Brock" doesn't automatically imply an impressive wrestling background.


rasslinjunkie - 8-17-2003 at 01:34 AM

I know, niles, but my point was that Slade went a bit mental over the post. His burn was funny, but Stormtrooper kinda got incinerated over a post that was nowhere near deserving of such a reaction.
Slade was showing off, and went a bit too far, that's all.

Kinda reminds me of Brock's shooting star press at WrestleMania, actually........

How very BROCK of you, Slade.


nilesanderson - 8-17-2003 at 04:37 AM

But you must keep in mind that Stormtrooper has shown as of late how opinionated he can be. As a result, a major flaming was due. He needed to be set straight. Slade was just the man to do it. And he was great.


rasslinjunkie - 8-17-2003 at 04:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nilesanderson
But you must keep in mind that Stormtrooper has shown as of late how opinionated he can be. As a result, a major flaming was due. He needed to be set straight.


Uh...........okay. THAT certainly had a Stepford kind of feel to it. Wait.....I mean no it didn't. Yes, you're right. He did need to be "set straight." Opinions only cause discord and unrest.

I love OO, I love OO, I love OO.


Stormtrooper - 8-17-2003 at 06:16 AM

I am very sorry for having thoughts, it won't happen again. I love hosses, Chris Benoit has no charisma, Undertaker is a legend who deserves my respect, cruiserweight's are too small to get over, actual wrestling isn't as important as ridiculous plotlines and HHH is the 'best in the business'.


The National Dudley - 8-17-2003 at 08:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Stormtrooper
I am very sorry for having thoughts, it won't happen again. I love hosses, Chris Benoit has no charisma, Undertaker is a legend who deserves my respect, cruiserweight's are too small to get over, actual wrestling isn't as important as ridiculous plotlines and HHH is the 'best in the business'.


Hmm...the strange thing about this is...I actually agree with almost everything you just wrote, Trooper! Although, I would omit the word "ridiculous" and the part about the cruiserweights and that would be the summation of all my thoughts on wrestling today. I'm serious.

And it was mentioned a couple days ago, I think by Thom, that I blasted Goldberg for selling. Well, come on, I say anything too rash. I just mentioned that he looked funny just standing there taking Flair's abuse. Sure, he sold it when he was walking around and stuff, and that looked absolutely golden, but it looked goofy when he was taking it.

And that's the thing about selling: I expect it to happen. I shouldn't have to commend Goldberg on him finally selling a knee injury and selling it well. I shouldn't have to praise Benoit as a god of all things Canadian and Good and BROCK. That's one of those things that just should happen. I shouldn't have to look for it, I shouldn't have to bitch that it wasn't there. It should be there, all the time, regardless of if I'm paying attention or not.

More power to Goldberg for selling, though. He's finally doing what he needs to be doing.


Stormtrooper - 8-17-2003 at 08:59 AM

"I actually agree with almost everything you just wrote, Trooper! Although, I would omit the word "ridiculous" and the part about the cruiserweights and that would be the summation of all my thoughts on wrestling today. I'm serious"

You scare me.

Why could you possibly agree with any of that?.


The National Dudley - 8-17-2003 at 09:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Stormtrooper
You scare me.

Why could you possibly agree with any of that?.


Well, you see, you're not the only one with opinions and that free thinking problem, Trooper. It seems to be going around like malaria. Somebody get FEMA alerted now! It's crazy-go-BROCK!

How could you not agree with anything you wrote, Trooper?

-Taker is a legend and deserves respect. You don't have to like him but you should respect the man and realize he's just as big a legend as Shawn, Bret or Mick. Some would argue more so.

-Benoit has no charisma. He doesn't. Let's be honest. I love the guy and I salivate over his work, but, damn, he's got no charisma.

-Storylines hook the people into wanting a see a match, and can even get people to not want to see a match. Remember Katie Vick? I wanted to see Kane v. HHH...until that storyline kicked in. It was so bad, Kane didn't even smell the main event until his character was totally revamped.
-The opposite of what I just said was true of John Cena v. Taker. I thought it would be another Taker squash. But the storyline intrigued me and I changed my tune. And if you watch the end of that match, it told a story, rather than a simple "Taker beats Cena". Cena walked away from that the better man, simply because of the storyline.
-A storyline, I feel, is much more important than the actual wrestling taking place in a match. Look at Eddie v. Chris. I loved that match. I was there. It was great. But was I that excited for it to begin with? Nope. Because there was no story behind it aside from the standard "I want the US title because I don't like you".

-I like hosses. What can I say? They're just as fine as any other weight class, I guess.

EDIT: Ack, forgot to mention something, yes, I think HHH is the best in the business. I like the guy and he's consistently entertained me more than anyone else on the roster currently. I think he's the most valuable superstar the WWE has.

[Edited on 8-17-2003 by The National Dudley]


Stormtrooper - 8-17-2003 at 11:12 AM

you'll notice I said "why" and not "how" as I was origionally going to(which is also why 'could' is there, not bad grammer).

-I don't see how hanging around for years makes you a legend.

-You make some decent points with the storylines vs wrestling thing, although I would disagree with the Cena/Taker example(unsuprisingly to some I suppose) Taker has a match on the PPV and Cena is back in the midcard with no feud.

-HHH and hoss statements, I have NO idea what the hell you're talking about and we obviously have totally opposite tastes there.


The National Dudley - 8-17-2003 at 12:09 PM

Hanging around for years? Oh, come on, man, he's had some great matches and some memorable storylines. You gotta admit that. All his matches with Austin, Bret, etc. Come on.

Well, the hosses and HHH thing is based on taste so that's no big deal.


Stormtrooper - 8-17-2003 at 12:26 PM

how hard is it to have a good match with Austin and Bret?. but meh, that's your opinion.


nilesanderson - 8-17-2003 at 03:20 PM

All apologies for my last post, I was a tad bit into the liqour last night. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, including Stormtrooper. The reason I believe that flame wasn't too harsh is because Stormtrooper has been spouting off his opinion (as we all tend to do from time to time) without backing it up, giving any valid reasons for why we should accept that from him. From the debate about Billy Gunn to "He's Brock", he hasn't been offering much more than loudmouthedness about the Undertaker sucking and Goldberg sucking and Billy Gunn sucking without saying why he thought beyond "he's fat" "he almost broke Benoit's neck once" or "he's not BROCK". Anyways Stormy, if you want to avoid that kind of thing, keep posting, but keep a bit more of an open mind. Having your opinion respected means respecting others as well.

[Edited on 8-17-2003 by nilesanderson]


Slade - 8-17-2003 at 04:22 PM

quote:
if I wanted to talk to a pedantic asshole I'd just u2u Jeb.


Thank you very kindly, Stormtrooper. I'm glad that you think so highly of me. At any rate, all I have to say is deal with it. I'm willing to put up with illiterate Scott Keith drones like you, so the least you can do is put up with pedantic assholes like me.

On another note, I meant to bring this up earlier, but didn't get around to it. I don't make it a habit to go around correcting other people's spelling errors or their poor grammar, because every once in a while I too make errors. However, I will do it when people are constantly misspelling somebody's name. Overlooking how careless your spelling is, Stormtrooper, the least you could do is spell a guy's name correctly. I would have let it slide if it was once, but for the love of God, you misspelled Brock Lesnar's name in successive posts. It's Lesnar, not Lesner. How can you possibly not know how to spell the guy's name? He's BROCK, for crying out loud!

Rasslinjunkie, why should any amount of amateur clout earn a professional wrestler respect? Why should having been an amateur wrestler automatically make you a valuable asset to a professional wrestling organization? If having been a great amateur wrestler demands respect in professional wrestling, then Alex ‘The Pug’ Porteau would’ve been a mega-star in the WWF long before Kurt Angle came along. But he wasn’t. He was a jobber that didn’t stay employed for very long. Was he a better asset to the company than Bill Goldberg is? No. Goldberg gets a response from the crowd. He’s already sold more merchandise and put more people in the seats in his entire career than Alex Porteau has. In fact, Alex Porteau never sold any merchandise because there was no demand for it. He never went anywhere in professional wrestling because he was nothing special.

Regardless of what you say about Goldberg being some kind of a ‘fantasy’ created by the WCW, the fact is that he had a major streak that was a big deal. Most certainly, Brock Lesnar won a World title before Goldberg did, but Goldberg made it to the top pretty quickly too. Even if he got there without being gifted in the ring, he made it further than Ahmed Johnson ever did, and he’s still around. Ahmed Johnson was a behemoth with a streak, but he became a nothing and nobody rather quickly. If he showed up tomorrow on RAW, after more than a 2-year absence from a big professional wrestling organization, nobody would care. Yet, Goldberg returned after a 2-year absence from a big professional wrestling organization and people did care. His return did not fall on deaf ears. It shows that he is of great value to the WWE.


The National Dudley - 8-17-2003 at 05:01 PM

But, Slade...he's BROCK L'essnurr!

How can you deny such a feat. I mean, in just three days, his name has gone from a noun with one uppercase letter to an adjective with five uppercase letters! That's gotta count for something.


rasslinjunkie - 8-18-2003 at 10:40 AM

quote:

Rasslinjunkie, why should any amount of amateur clout earn a professional wrestler respect? Why should having been an amateur wrestler automatically make you a valuable asset to a professional wrestling organization? If having been a great amateur wrestler demands respect in professional wrestling, then Alex ‘The Pug’ Porteau would’ve been a mega-star in the WWF long before Kurt Angle came along. But he wasn’t. He was a jobber that didn’t stay employed for very long. Was he a better asset to the company than Bill Goldberg is? No. Goldberg gets a response from the crowd. He’s already sold more merchandise and put more people in the seats in his entire career than Alex Porteau has. In fact, Alex Porteau never sold any merchandise because there was no demand for it. He never went anywhere in professional wrestling because he was nothing special.

Because, dear Slade, we are living in a post-Angle wrestling world. Kurt Angle has contributed many things to pro-wrestling, but the first and perhaps greatest was legitimacy. Having a "freakin Olympic gold medalist" on board brought new respect to WWE. When Brock came to WWE, he too, brought a high caliber athletic feel, in light of his achievements in amateur wrestling. And not only did his previous experience lend credibility, but it gave WWE yet another wrestler with truly fantastic technical skills, as well as a ready made feud with Angle.
As I said, this is a new age in pro wrestling; just look at Smackdown, it's whole image is based on a more truly athletic show featuring more traditional grapplers.
And THAT is why an amateur background is valuable now, you schmuck.
quote:

Regardless of what you say about Goldberg being some kind of a ‘fantasy’ created by the WCW, the fact is that he had a major streak that was a big deal. Most certainly, Brock Lesnar won a World title before Goldberg did, but Goldberg made it to the top pretty quickly too. Even if he got there without being gifted in the ring, he made it further than Ahmed Johnson ever did, and he’s still around. Ahmed Johnson was a behemoth with a streak, but he became a nothing and nobody rather quickly. If he showed up tomorrow on RAW, after more than a 2-year absence from a big professional wrestling organization, nobody would care. Yet, Goldberg returned after a 2-year absence from a big professional wrestling organization and people did care. His return did not fall on deaf ears. It shows that he is of great value to the WWE.

And WHY was Goldberg such a big deal? Because people are sheep, for the most part, and WCW creative took full advantage of that fact.
"GOOOOOOOLDBERG! He big! He strong! Look how fire no hurt him! Fire make him smile and growl! BOOM! He knock down guy! 78th week in a row! Goldberg is COOOOOL!!!!!"
Absolutely idiotic. And that's coming from someone who actually likes Goldberg. Bill Goldberg was a big guy with a cool look. That is all. Everything else was manufactured. There is no Santa Claus. Goldberg made great money doing very little in WCW. Then he made great money doing very little in Japan. Then he teased WWE for ages, holding out for a cushy contract that would allow him to do a handful of shows and get filthy rich. For that, I hated him, and rightly so. But now, he is trying, and I'm actually quite impressed. Maybe he's gaining some respect for the business and himself. I'm glad he's on board, and yes, he is very good for the company. Even if he never gets any better, there will always be idiotic sheep to cheer the spear.
Baa, Slade, baa.


Thom - 8-18-2003 at 02:49 PM

So, having a good amateur wrestling background makes you valuable to the E? So, I guess we can all look forward to you never bad-mouthing Scott Steiner ever again…


bigfatgoalie - 8-18-2003 at 04:11 PM

if Steiner would have just layed off the juice and developed his in ring performance around his amateur skills people would be happy...

Steiner back in the day was one of the best in ring performers...his matches when WCW went over to Japan rocked, as did Steiners vs Luger/Sting.

Sadly, Scotty got too pumped and his back and foot too messed up be any good. I think most people who see Steiner now who saw him before realizee he is a shadow of his former physical self...that he lacks the skills of Brian Pillman to overcome his shortcomings just makes matter worse.


Slade - 8-18-2003 at 09:56 PM

quote:
And THAT is why an amateur background is valuable now, you schmuck.


Fair enough. I liked your argument. Having a background in amateur wrestling certainly can be of great value to a prospective professional wrestler, however I don't necessarily think that having a background in amateur wrestling will mean that you will be a successful professional wrestling. I doubt that 'The Pug' would have any more of a chance at becoming even a mildly successful wrestler in 2003 than he had in 1996.

quote:
And WHY was Goldberg such a big deal? Because people are sheep, for the most part, and WCW creative took full advantage of that fact.


What makes people sheep? The fact that they might prefer to become fans of a guy with 3 moves instead of a guy who knows 1000 holds?

The truth is that there are other intangibles that go into making a valuable professional wrestler. In some ways, having a personality that the masses will love is better than being a magnificent worker. Fan appeal will get you a lot farther than knowing how to do 15 different suplexes.

The WCW braintrust was smart to take advantage of the things that Goldberg had. Regardless of whether or not he ever turned out a memorable wrestling match or not, he was a guy that people wanted to see. Goldberg was of great value to WCW. They had a role for him to play and he fit it. However, if he didn't have the persona to fit that role, people probably wouldn't have bought into it and the streak would've failed. I suppose there is nothing else to be said about it.

quote:
Baa, Slade, baa.


If you are implying that I am a Bill Goldberg fan, you are wrong. These days I can tolerate Goldberg's presence, but I am not a Goldberg fan. I never have been, and highly doubt that I ever will be. But just because I am not a Goldberg fan doesn't mean that I fail to recognize that is a valuable asset to the WWE. It is because of business that Goldberg is in the WWE. He can make the company money. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't be there.


Blown Spot - 8-18-2003 at 10:30 PM

Wow. A Goldberg fan downplaying the man's career and a non-Goldberg fan adamantly defending it.

What has this world come to?


rasslinjunkie - 8-18-2003 at 10:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slade
Fair enough. I liked your argument. Having a background in amateur wrestling certainly can be of great value to a prospective professional wrestler, however I don't necessarily think that having a background in amateur wrestling will mean that you will be a successful professional wrestling. I doubt that 'The Pug' would have any more of a chance at becoming even a mildly successful wrestler in 2003 than he had in 1996.

I never said an amateur background guaranteed success as a "professional wrestling." You asked why it was valuable and I tried to explain in small words. I see I failed. Oh well, back to simple terms. BECUZ HE IZ BROCK.

quote:

What makes people sheep? The fact that they might prefer to become fans of a guy with 3 moves instead of a guy who knows 1000 holds?

What makes people sheep is a willingness to cheer on a wrestler simply because he is marketed as "unstoppable," without asking themselves "Why does he only have three moves? Is he retarded or just lazy?"
quote:

The truth is that there are other intangibles that go into making a valuable professional wrestler. In some ways, having a personality that the masses will love is better than being a magnificent worker. Fan appeal will get you a lot farther than knowing how to do 15 different suplexes.

Absolutely. I agree totally. Just one problem. Goldberg had nothing to back up the "intangible." So he was basically pretending to be a guy who pretends to fight other guys. Maybe it's just me, but I respect the guys who bust their asses too much to not want to spit on a guy who's coasting on "intangibles."

quote:
Baa, Slade, baa.

quote:
If you are implying that I am a Bill Goldberg fan, you are wrong.

Nope. I am implying that you are a sheep.

Now back to where this all began. My point, dear Slade, was that you cannot compare Brock Lesnar, who has legitimacy, drive, and respect , with Bill Goldberg, who has yet to truly prove himself after coasting on his growl and spear for far too long. Brock is simply BROCK, while Goldberg is simply Stone Cold minus the talent.


LuckyLopez - 8-18-2003 at 10:51 PM

RJ, if I may rudely insert myself into this, my only real objection to your thesis is that people cheered Goldberg because they were told to. It just doesn't hold up. How many people were the fans "told" to cheer and they didn't? How many of those people were billed as "unstoppable"? I think what we often forget in the wholed Goldberg thing is that he had the initial appeal. The fans could have easily rejected the noname who came out and squashed some folks. They'd done it a hundred times before. For some reason it worked. Maybe it was something extra that Goldberg had. Maybe the stars just lined up right. But for SOME reason it worked for Goldberg when it didn't for Tank Abbot, Brakkus, Nathan Jones, Mantaur, Rhyno (someone's gonna fight me on that) or whoever else. It works for very few, including Lesnar, and its fair to say that's because those men had what it took to work it and to get that initial appeal.

Now that Lesnar has more in his bag than Goldberg, I ain't gonna fightcha'... But I will say that Brock's amateur background really just seem like words to me. I get it, he was a NCAA champion (right?) which must mean he was a pretty damn good college wrestler, but that doesn't seem like it means much unless you prove it does. Angle did. Porteau, not so much. But Lesnar's amateur career has less impact on me than Haas and Benjamin's, both of which I know almost nothing about but which seem to clearly influence their daily work in the ring. Just my opinion because I don't much agree that an amateur background is a ticket to legitmacy. I don't see this "Angle Age" of wrestling, I'm afraid.

Noone's as BROCK as Chip Minton...


SuperRob - 8-19-2003 at 05:10 AM

Why are you all arguing when the answer is obvious. Goldberg simply has that charisma where he walks into a building and people say, "Whoa". Hogan and The Rock are the same in that way. They don't need to know hundreds of moves, people like to SEE them. Goldberg can go out, breathe fire, spear a guy, grab the ropes and snarl, and the crowd goes home happy.

Guys like Benoit can use their superior skills to get past the fact that if he were walking down the street, most people wouldn't even notice. Then you have Kurt Angle, the whole f'n package. He's got that Charisma, and the skills to back it up.

If you choose to buck the trends and root for guys that most fans don't, then welcome to America. But show some respect and realize that some people may like a wrestler who moves like a sack of bricks because there's just something about the guy that appeals to them.


Thom - 8-19-2003 at 02:34 PM

I’m glad Rob brought up the names Hogan and Rock. The main problem I have with the “He’s BROCK” argument is that Brock Lesnar has not yet achieved “legend” status. Take, for instance, when the NWO came to the WWE – most people actually cheered for Hollywood Hulk Hogan, although he was a bad guy. Why? Because he’s Hogan. In this case, I believe, the argument works. Just about every North American wrestling fan knows who Hulk Hogan is, and how popular he was for so long. The same argument can be applied to The Rock. He’s such a popular, well known persona, he can get pops just by being there. “Why are you cheering Rock, when he’s a bad guy?” Because he’s The Rock – one of the most popular wrestlers of our time. On the same note, just by being the legends that they are - bad-guy Undertaker, bad-guy Ric Flair, and Mick Foley can get cheered “just because they are who they are.” Brock has not yet, IMO, reached that level yet. Perhaps in about 5 years or so, but not today.

BTW – if we’re going to say, “He’s Brock”, meaning that his amateur credentials give him the credibility – shouldn’t we actually be saying, “He’s Kurt”?


Slade - 8-19-2003 at 02:53 PM

No, you can't just go lifting the definition of the word BROCK to mean KURT.

BROCK is a legitimate term used in wrestling circles to mean that a wrestler has a background as a successful amateur wrestler, that he is very agile and that he has impeccable mat wrestling skills. It is a generally accepted adjective used to describe the characteristics of a wrestler. If a wrestler cannot does not fit these three conditions, they are not BROCK.

Besides, where the hell do you get the idea that the term BROCK should be eliminated from the English language and that it should be replaced by the term KURT?


Pistol Pez - 8-20-2003 at 01:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rasslinjunkie
What makes people sheep is a willingness to cheer on a wrestler simply because he is marketed as "unstoppable," without asking themselves "Why does he only have three moves? Is he retarded or just lazy?"



it's because he only needs 3 moves to be over

. . . and he doesn't want to bury less charismatic workers by using moves like his patented "Van Goldberginator."

Half of that post was serious.


Thom - 8-20-2003 at 01:23 PM

My bad, Slade… How dare I use any sort of logic while posting on these boards? ;D

Belee Dat!


rasslinjunkie - 8-20-2003 at 05:25 PM

Bah, this is tiresome. Lucky: my point about Goldberg was that WCW took a guy with a great look and a neato gimmick and then shoved him down our fucking throats. I don’t know, maybe you’ve forgotten, but even my dumber friends eventually began to say “meh” once his winning streak became ridiculously long. There was no drama to Bill Goldberg; he just came in and knocked people down. Personally, I found it offensive that we were expected to buy into a guy with no experience and no real skill, either in the ring or on the mike. He had a little charisma, and he got lucky. Neither deserved the hoopala.

As far as Lesnar goes, Slade said that an amateur background was not of value. I disagreed. He didn’t seem to get the difference between someone like Goldberg, and someone like Lesnar. I tried to explain that Lesnar’s amateur background gave him a legitimacy that Goldberg never had, and he’s used it nicely to develop his style in WWE. He’s shown a willingness to work hard from the beginning, and has improved much faster than Bill. That was my point, and a very simple one, I thought. As to the “Angle Age,” I was merely referring to the recent turn towards more emphasis on athleticism. WWE has used Angle and other wrestlers with similar amateur backgrounds to lend a sense of realism to pro wrestling that was sorely needed, and so, after Kurt Angle, having an amateur background is more valuable.

Simple points, and I'm afraid I can't state them any more clearly, so I'm out.


salmonjunkie - 8-20-2003 at 06:12 PM

Slade, you're so FRANK.


Slade - 8-20-2003 at 09:53 PM

Rasslinjunkie, I did not say that having a background as an amateur wrestler was of no value. I asked you why it was of value, and then provided you with an example of a guy who had a background as an amateur wrestler and did not amount to anything in professional wrestling. I'm sure that by telling you the story of Alex Porteau, it appeared as though I thought that having a background as an amateur wrestler was of no value, but that is not the case. I merely wanted to see what you had to say about Porteau, because it is closely related to questions of amateur wrestlers deserving respect and being of value.

Then later, I said, "Having a background in amateur wrestling certainly can be of great value to a prospective professional wrestler, however I don't necessarily think that having a background in amateur wrestling will mean that you will be a successful professional wrestling (I meant wrestler)." That was always my contention, I just chose not to say what I thought until after I was done probing you with my questions.

Having a background as an amateur wrestler is can be valuable, but it probably was of no value to Alex Porteau because it didn't help him get over. It didn't bring him any success as a professional wrestler. Having a background as an amateur wrestler can be a good thing, but it won't necessarily do anything for you if you have no personality or you fail to convert your technical wizardry from the circled-circle (for lack of a better word) to the squared-circle.


LuckyLopez - 8-20-2003 at 10:21 PM

RJ: I didn't mean to drag this one out for you. Lord knows these things get weary before too long, especially if you're covering from multiple angles.

The "Angle Age" thing really isn't worth talking about, I suppose. It just struck me that most of the guys with amateur-like styles/backgrounds were in fairly similar roles before Angle came around (ie Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, RVD), were climbing up (Edge, Jericho, Rhyno) or were just not in the game (Lesnar, Haas, Benjamin, Cena). It seems less like some vast movement coming from the success of Angle that it was a simple matter of evolution as less and less of the old school type players were entering into the business. But it was only a secondary point you made, or even lower, so feel free to ignore this as all I'm doing is ranting on some minor thing you said.

As far as Goldberg... I dunno. I'm fairly weary in general of debating the guy. I personally find it obvious that if one guy achieves following the same path that others failed down, that probably says something about that one guy. Yeah, I know that most fans started to lose interest when the streak got dragged out and became utterly silly. But that doesn't seem to take away from how they reacted to it when it was working... and it worked from a pretty good amount of time. For a guy with the bare minimum of required skill to get THAT over based on dominating a group of people NOONE cared about... maybe it was pure dumb luck but he's even managed to carry it with him today. I think most of the Goldberg criticism is based on that he isn't what WCW painted him as 5 years ago... and that seems unfair to Berg and the WWE. Neither was in control of the WCW PR department, they're just working with what is left.

But my real problem was that you called me a sheep. Don't you know you hurt my feelings? The whole "No, Goldberg has nothing. If you think he has nothing that's only because you are foolish enough to have bought into it when WCW lied and told you he had everything. Get your head out of the sand, you fool. Wake up and smell the Angle." - thing seems so IWC to me...

I know you didn't actually say THAT... just running off on tangents, you know?


OO Kyle - 8-21-2003 at 01:51 AM

I aspire to someday be JEB.


rasslinjunkie - 8-21-2003 at 09:43 AM

Guys, I'm tired of this. Let's find something new to fight and nitpick like old women over. Like those whores on Sex and the City. (and yes, Lucky, that was a jab.)
And so was the sheep thing. I meant what I said about SOME of the fans being happily spoon fed guys like Goldgerg instead of real wrestlers, but I only directed it at you to get a rise out of you.
You are no sheep. You are a jackass.


LuckyLopez - 8-21-2003 at 11:07 AM

Ohhhh... a jackass, am I? Well you should hear what I have to say about those damn Sex and the City bitches after I caught the episode this week while waiting for the very special "LAST EPISODE... before the SEASON FINALE!" of The Wire. Damn Sarah Jessica Parker always thinking everything should be about her...



In all seriousness, I know you're tired of it and I understand. I was just bringing up and furthering crap that didn't need to be because I felt like I hadn't actually talked about wrestling on these boards too much lately. I've been a purposely confrontational asshole these past few weeks. Please do feel free to ignore me.