The Online Onslaught Forums


By contributing to Online Onslaught, you'll help make sure we're around for years to come. Toss us as little as a few bucks, or as much as your generosity allows. Thanks!

Last active: Never Not logged in [Login ]

Printable Version |
Subscribe | Add to Favorites
New Topic New Poll
Author: Subject: Don't cry for thee (John Cena)
borntorun
God of This World






Posts -8684
Registered 7-22-2003
Location Breathe
Member Is Offline

Mood: House, Monk-E

posted on 7-29-2003 at 06:02 AM Edit Post
Don't cry for thee (John Cena)

(Note: Although I had been thinking about this since Vengeance ended, Rick's Monday OO Column helped me sort some things out. Thank you.)

There are few things that appall internet wrestling fans more than a member of the “old school” of wrestling absolutely decimating a performer who has a chance to not only become a big star in the business but a centerpiece of programming for years to come. At the July Pay Per View, the Undertaker did just that: he completely squashed the future of the company in a match that, in the view of many, abruptly stopped the young superstar’s momentum. “It will take a long time to recover from this job,” the fans cried. “Damn, damn, damn the Undertaker for not putting him over. Now he’ll never be championship material.”

Well, who would have known that 3 months after being sacrificed to the American Badass at Fully Loaded in 2000, Kurt Angle would defeat an even bigger superstar in The Rock to raise the title belt above his head for the first time? In the end, the loss to the Undertaker amounts to little more than one of many losses on the way to becoming the best. Three years later, Kurt Angle is headlining Wrestlemania, main-eventing Smackdown! on a weekly basis, and after 2003’s Vengeance PPV, is once again World Champion.

Speaking of Vengeance, John Cena will most certainly have his in the long run. Regardless of the ass kicking he took the other night, he’s not done for. 2000 was Kurt Angle’s finest year: he emerged as a major player, won over the crowd with his unique promos, and developed a style that separated him from everybody else. There is no reason to believe that 2003 will not be the year Cena makes it big.

In fact, if one compares John Cena’s PPV results from this year with Angle’s banner year, it almost seems like destiny that Cena will follow in the Olympic champion’s footsteps. I’m not going to go into too many details about each event, as I believe the basics are good enough. Scrutinize if you will, but this is essentially what happened.

Royal Rumble
Jan 2000: Angle loses in about five minutes to the debuting Tazz.
Jan 2003: Cena has an unmemorable performance in his first Royal Rumble.
Advantage: Angle. Although it was the first blemish on his unbeaten streak, he was able to claim the Tazzmission is an “illegal hold.”

No Way Out
February 2000: Angle wins the Intercontinental Championship from Chris Jericho.
February 2003: Cena did not participate
Advantage: Duh. Angle now holds two belts, adding this trophy to his European Championship.

Wrestlemania
March/April 2000: Angle loses the IC belt to Benoit and the Euro to Jericho, although Angle himself is not involved in any of the decisions.
March 2003: Cena does some rapping on Sunday Night Heat before the PPV. Nothing special.
Advantage: Angle, as he was actually on the show.

Interlude: So you’re thinking, “Wow, Angle is ahead on 3 straight cards, and so far Cena has been all but a ghost on the PPV scene. Some comparison: good thing you don’t write analogies for the SATs.” Fair enough, but look how far Cena has come since then:

Backlash
April 2000: Lost to the “Showster,” essentially ending a short feud with someone who just main-evented Wrestlemania.
April 2003: Lost to Brock Lesnar in the Smackdown! main event World Title match.
Advantage: Cena. Although he was placed in the main event a bit too soon, he at least lasted longer than most of Lesnar’s opponents at that point and started to really get some heat for his raps.

Judgment Day:
May 2000: Kurt loses in a 6-man tag pitting him, Edge, and Christian v. Too Cool and Rikishi.
May 2003: Cena is part of the winning team in a 6-man tag. Along with the FBI, they beat Benoit, Spanky, and Rhyno.
Advantage: Toss up. In the scheme of things, both matches were demotions from the upper card prominence the month before, and within a few weeks these feuds were over with. However, Team ECK’s match was very entertaining and their partnership helped elevate Angle for the coming months.

King of the Ring/Bad Blood
June 2000: Kurt beats Jericho, Spike Dudley, and Rikishi in one night to become King of the Ring.
June 2003: RAW only PPV, so Cena is not there.
Advantage: Yeah, this was huge for Angle. Although it was obvious he was going to win, the KOTR victory would become a cornerstone of his promos for a year.

At this point in their respective years, Cena and Angle are about at the same level. Each gets a wealth of TV time, can perform in the ring, and is a master on the microphone. While Angle is more decorated, Cena has had a PPV title shot and has just one win and one loss (not counting the Rumble) on Pay Per View, as he upset Jericho in his only PPV match in 2002. It is probable that he would have won either the U.S. Title or the KOTR by now as well, if either honor were still in existence. Which brings us to:

Fully Loaded/Vengeance
July 2000: In a match set-up partially out of Angle’s lack of respect for the Undertaker, the Deadman destroys Kurt Angle with the Last Ride.
July 2003: In a match totally booked on Cena’s lack of respect for the Undertaker, the Deadman wins a hard-fought match.

The matches are similar in some regards, yet different in others. In both, Undertaker dominates at the start and would score an early pinfall, except he pulls his opponent up at the two count. The big difference, though, is that while Angle really does not get any offense thereafter and is ultimately left lying in the middle of the ring, Cena pulls out plenty of heel tactics (exposed turnbuckle, chain) and makes UT cough up blood before being pinned. However, Cena is the first to leave under his own power, and looks much better than Angle did in his 2000 match.

Despite all the uproar over Angle being squashed, Angle blossomed into a main eventer and champion over the next few months. A highly entertaining love triangle around him, HHH, and Stephanie led to Angle’s involvement in the triple-threat title match at Summerslam (with the Rock), and a subsequent one-on-one loss to HHH at the September PPV. The next month, though, Angle won his first world championship by defeating the Rock and would defend it successfully through February 2001 until he lost it back to The Great One at No Way Out. Not a bad run for someone who was unceremoniously crapped on by an over the hill wrestler just a few months before.

Does that mean that Cena has the same immediate future? Well, it is extremely unlikely that he’ll have a main event spot at Summerslam as Angle did. Although Cena may become involved with Stephanie in some sort of storyline (as shown by the spanktastic scene on SD last week), it is doubtful she’ll have the same rub on him as she did on Angle (yes, the sexual pun was intended).

Remember, though, that Angle rose to the top despite wrestling in a period where The Rock, HHH, Undertaker, and a returning Stone Cold Steve Austin were all top dogs, with Jericho waiting in the wings. It would seem that Cena has a bit of an easier road (although still difficult) to the gold. Angle and Lesnar can’t feud forever. Big Show probably will not win the belt again anytime soon, and Undertaker probably won’t factor into the title picture for a while either. Benoit and Guerrero, along with Cena, are the likeliest candidates to move up to the main event. One thing nobody mentions is that John Cena has only been involved in 3 PPV singles matches: an upset win over Jericho, a loss in a title match to Lesnar, and coming up just short against the Undertaker. Not bad for a relative rookie. Brock Lesnar had just about as much experience when he won the world title, and many people thought he was pushed too soon, so don’t be too upset if they give Cena more time.

October will be the 3rd anniversary of Kurt Angle’s biggest win. This year, just as baseball season ends, someone fresh will step up to the “wrestling” plate. For now, my money’s on John Cena.

Word Life. It’s True.

[Edited on 7-29-2003 by borntorun]





Fake McCoy Comics

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   borntorun 's Aim
cpdevine1
The Great One






Posts 3305
Registered 10-26-2002
Location nowhere fun
Member Is Offline

Mood: in utter disbel

posted on 7-29-2003 at 11:13 AM Edit Post
Everyone (well, almost everyone) goes through their jobbing phases.

HHH jobbed to everyone and their mother at one point in time, including a pig farmer, Kane, HBK (pre-Dx) and probably the biggest job of them all to the Ultimate Warrior at WM. Now he never loses.

HBK had some big losses to people like Bret Hart, Mr Perfectm British Bulldog and Razor Ramon among others, before he got into the World title picture

The losses just set up for the future, and contrary to belief, his loss wasn't a squash. Cena did look good in defeat and like Rick said, it could benifit Cena by losing. They could turn him face and do the mutual respect thing, although I think it still might be too soon for that. Maybe after a rematch that Cena gets the upper hand in, then this match isn't as detrimental or fatal as some believe it to be.

One match can make a career, but it doesn't break one.

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
deshorta
Creepy Little Bastard






Posts 64
Registered 7-29-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 7-29-2003 at 12:28 PM Edit Post
Cena's good, yes, obviously, but is he really up there at main event level yet? You could say that, in terms of paying dues and all that, Benoit, Rhyno, Eddie, and Edge would deserve to be in the title scene before him. So really jobbing to UT isn't all that bad, it's simply about Cena perfecting his niche before the opportunity arises for him to step up.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Stormtrooper
The Great One






Posts 3635
Registered 1-5-2002
Location under glass ceiling
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 7-29-2003 at 02:51 PM Edit Post
he shouldn't have had his finisher no-sold and been super-squashed





THE CHAMP

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member   Stormtrooper 's Yahoo
madiq
Crusader for Pure Truth






Posts 2131
Registered 7-5-2002
Location Brooklyn, New York, the capital of the Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 7-30-2003 at 01:10 AM Edit Post
Maybe this means Cena will pull out a second finisher. Angle did the Olympic Slam for a while, before going badass and breaking out the ankle-lock. Hopefully Cena will do the same...
View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   madiq 's Aim
MrJustinB
Man of a Thousand Holds






Posts 1636
Registered 1-18-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: Blue and Orange

posted on 7-30-2003 at 05:32 PM Edit Post
The rant is well thought out, and well written. Kudos. But I just have a small comment.

Isn't it also true that Angle go over despite Undertaker's jobbing him out? It's not like Undertaker's killing was in some way an aid to Angle getting over. If anything, it added to his goofy, wacky, geek guy character that Angle had to overcome to be taken seriously by the fanbase.

I have a lot of respect for Cena. there's probably no one I like more on the roster than him. But, he's not Kurt Angle. He's not Kurt Anlge both in pure, unmitigated ability, and sheer will power of booking.

If jobbing people out is a wonderful means of getting people over (Undertaker or not), than why are the FBI now curtain jerking dark matches? The FBI may not be the most intriguing group to ever pass by, but at the same time they are a group that the fed spent a load of time on. They seemed to be geared for bigger things. A couple blow aways by the usual suspects and now they're also-rans.

See, guys like Rock and Austin can go through having their finisher kicked out of, and go on. Upper card guys can take a job and not have it tarnish their record. The reason being that these wrestlers are established stars. Their finishers are established, their place in history, established. What's happeneing to Cena is called 'having your legs cut out from under you'. It's unfair to use the Angle situation, in effect, because Angle was able to overcome those odds because of who he is, and what he brings to the table. Angle is, by all means, above everyone else on the roster. He has been for some time.

I think my point, and the point of those that have argued this "jobbing period", is we find it ridiculous. This is a show. This is not a sport. I'm in no way saying that Undertaker losing to Cena will turn around ratings. I am in no way saying that Cena is suddenly more important, or more relavent than Undertaker. Those things, whether I believe them or not, are too difficult to prove, simply brought up on conjecture, and hearsay. But if you want to change things, if they want to make a difference, they have to start somewhere. They have to establish their new guys. And I'm sorry. But I don't think that the fanbase at large, smark or not, find geting your ass handed to you by the freakin' Undertaker helps to establish you in any way. Especially when he kicks out of your finisher, basically beats you twice in one match. I mean, Undertaker showed to all the world that Cena "had to be pulled up" earlier in the match, or it would have been done there anyways.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the "paying your dues" line that seems to have spread across the internet. This is a tv show. Why does anyone have to pay any dues? When Mark-Paul Gosseler joined NYPD BLUE was he suddenly razzed on screen for being on SBTB, and then kept only to arresting petty thieves in the opening moments of the show? And then when Franz walked by would be just nudge MPG out of the way, and ignore him, and step on his lines until MPG would leave, on camera? NO! you know why? Because it's a freakin' TV show. A tv show that needed a NEW male lead. And there was professionalism, and Mark's entrance into the show was as fluid as possible.

Ok, I'm going off here. I'm going to stop before more thoughts hit me.





"I want to make this shit cool again." - CM Punk

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
MysteriousDr.X
Showstopper






Posts 596
Registered 3-27-2003
Location The Great State of Wisconsin
Member Is Offline

Mood: Over it.

posted on 7-30-2003 at 07:51 PM Edit Post
Justin, I understand what you are saying, but you are issing one critical point in your comparison: it IS a show, and not a sport, but it is a show BASED ON sport.
In other words, having Mark-Paul Goselaar get shit on NYPD Blue would be tough because he's not playing a guy who came from the show "SBTB", he's playing a hard-boiled cop.
Cena is playing a guy trying to reach a higher level in SPORTS Entertainment. Remember, kayfabe dictates that the wrestlers aren't selling the "show" - they are selling the sport.
Nobody on RAW or SmackDown talks about how their having a belt will increase buyrates or bump ratings. We do that, because we are more-than-casually-interested fans. But, side from HHH making the comment that wrestling Goldberg would make him a ton of dough, these guys don't go out and cut promos based on the television aspects of the biz. Rather, they talk about wanting the belt (whichever one you care to choose) because it will distinguish them as superior athletes. You smell what I'm cooking?
Besides, the truly larger point is that John Cena didn't have his ass handed to him by Taker. He went out there and fought a hard match. It wasn't Cena with "blood" coming out of his mouth at the end. He - in the context of the show - busted up Taker pretty good. Taker just had the guts, grit, and experience to reach down deep and eke out the win.
I thought that he made Cena look like a million bucks.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
borntorun
God of This World






Posts -8684
Registered 7-22-2003
Location Breathe
Member Is Offline

Mood: House, Monk-E

posted on 7-30-2003 at 08:56 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by MysteriousDr.X

I thought that he made Cena look like a million bucks.


I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. I'm not going to aimlessly throw out ratios here, but for every few who say that Undertaker destroyed Cena's credibility, there are also people like MysteriousDr.X, Rick, cpdevine, and myself who think that Cena really didn't get hurt too much in the tough, tough fight.

quote:
Originally posted by MrJustinB If jobbing people out is a wonderful means of getting people over (Undertaker or not), than why are the FBI now curtain jerking dark matches? The FBI may not be the most intriguing group to ever pass by, but at the same time they are a group that the fed spent a load of time on. They seemed to be geared for bigger things. A couple blow aways by the usual suspects and now they're also-rans.


I never said that jobbing is a good way to get to the main event; My argument is that one loss to one of the biggest names in the business isn't going to ruin anyone's career. It all depends on how the loss is set up, and in my opinion Cena comes out looking better now than Angle did in 2000. This feud with the Undertaker is Cena's best program to date, and I think the fans realize that it's been Cena carrying 70-80% of the load in terms of gaining and maintaining interest in their conflict. I still say that the loss doesn't hurt him very much at all. I'm not going to say that he should have lost (I wanted him to win because I'm a huge fan of his), but he does have a chance to redeem himself on Smackdown next week, so we'll see then.

Also, I think the impact of Undertaker kicking out of Cena's finisher is being blown out of proportion. If it was Albert or someone I could see the problem, but its the Undertaker: he, out of anyone on the roster, is a big enough legend to do that; it makes UT look strong rather than Cena look weak.

Finally, I'm all about new stars. But Austin, HHH, Rock, Foley, Jericho, Angle, and pretty much everyone recently has taken time to build up their rep and become main-eventers. Cena has only been around for a year, and he was injured for much of that. How long has he been doing his bad-ass Word Life rap gimmick, anyway? 6 or 7 months, max. I do think Cena will get up there someday soon, but he's come a long way in essentially a half year. I think we all need to be patient.





Fake McCoy Comics

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   borntorun 's Aim
madiq
Crusader for Pure Truth






Posts 2131
Registered 7-5-2002
Location Brooklyn, New York, the capital of the Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 7-31-2003 at 04:00 AM Edit Post
Maybe people are spoiled from Project Angle and Project Lesnar, after seeing just how effective a sustained Mega-Push is.

The problem with the Angle-Cena comparison is that Angle came in as a goofy heel, then snapped and became a badass (but still goofy) heel. The character tweak seemed logical, and grew out of the "jobbing period." Cena, however, started as a Vanilla Face, snapped and became a Vanilla Cocky Heel, was tweaked into a Vanilla Ice (goofy) heel, and then snapped, becoming a badass. The F-U was supposed to be his "badass" finisher. This is supposed to be "Thugged Out" John Cena. I mean, sure he's funny, but they sell him as brutal in the ring, even if he's funny in his promos. The Death Valley Driver is supposed to kill guys dead. Like someone said somewhere, had UT put his leg on the ropes, the finisher would've been put over, because Undertaker would've "escaped" the pinfall. Instead, Undertaker has shown fans just how un-lethal Cena's finisher is. I'm a believer in establishing the finisher before showing that the kickout is possible. Thus, Cena should be able to kick out of the Last Ride (that didn't happen), because we've established that 99% of the time, the Last Ride IS the Last Ride, but we haven't established that Cena can beat any of the big boys with it.

Ask yourself: What made DDP so popular? His finisher. During his push, he took major assbeatings, but if he got the Diamondcutter on you, it was a wrap. And he would pull it out from anywhere. And no one kicked out from it, until DDP was firmly entrenched in the Main. Triple H: during the Push from Hell, did anyone kick out of the Pedigree? (I mean, people RARELY kick out of the Pedigree now...)

I'm not gonna exaggerate and say that Undertaker buried Cena, but the loss was a definite setback, even if he can hang his hat on a "strong showing." Unless, of course, they are turning Cena face....

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   madiq 's Aim
Drunknow
Banned






Posts 99
Registered 7-4-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood:

posted on 7-31-2003 at 11:22 AM Edit Post
I'm one of the guys who was defending 'Taker about a week ago, and I still don't think his beating John Cena is a big deal. I don't think his kicking out of the F-U is a big deal either.

But (and I didn't see the show, just read the recap)...didn't 'Taker pull Cena up early in the match after a 2 count? If that's true, that's about the worst offense I can imagine...especially when he ends up winning the match anyway. It's basically saying "Not only can I beat you once in 5 minutes, I can beat you twice in 20. Rookie." There's no need for that particular spot in that match if 'Taker was just gonna win eventually anyway.

That said, it really doesn't matter. John Cena hasn't gotten over from anything that's happened in a match anyway, and this match won't affect that at all. As long as he keeps up the dope rhymes (yo!), the fans will eat his stuff up.

My question is...why isn't the E sending true, mainstream appeal talent like Cena (a wrestler with actual rhyme skills?!), Tenacious Z (a one-legged wrestler?!), Brock (did he really just pick up that giant fat guy?!), Angle (a gold medal winner?!), and an in-character Y2J (what a cock!) out on the few mainstream and late night appearances the E gets booked these days? Triple H and Goldberg and Hogan ain't gonna entice the non-fan anymore. They're old news. If the non-fan or former fan cared about them, they'd have watched them five years ago, or wouldn't have stopped watching them in the first place.

Sorry, kind of off the point of the original ranter's well-thought-out post. But I guess this IS the ranting board...






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
borntorun
God of This World






Posts -8684
Registered 7-22-2003
Location Breathe
Member Is Offline

Mood: House, Monk-E

posted on 7-31-2003 at 09:52 PM Edit Post
quote:
Originally posted by Drunknow

That said, it really doesn't matter. John Cena hasn't gotten over from anything that's happened in a match anyway, and this match won't affect that at all. As long as he keeps up the dope rhymes (yo!), the fans will eat his stuff up.


Exactly. As I said before, he's only had 3 PPV singles matches and, quite frankly, I don't think he's still carrying any momentum from his upset over Jericho a year ago. He got the fans with his stick work, and any fans he happened to lose with the loss to the Undertaker will come back because of Cena's raps.

I do agree that it wasn't very necessary for 'Taker to pull Cena up after an early two count, but he did the same thing to Angle 3 years ago and people get pulled up after two all the time. It's not really a big deal.

And honestly, I'm not reading that anyone thinks that Cena's done with; we all know that he'll be back even better than before. Plus, let me ask you this: If he had beaten the Undertaker and finished his feud, where does he go from here? Brock/Angle are in the title picture, and UT is about the next highest on the opponent list. I don't mind seeing this feud being dragged out because I have a strong feeling Cena will be the victor in the end, at least in terms of moving up the card.





Fake McCoy Comics

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member   borntorun 's Aim

New Topic New Poll


go to top


Powered by XMB 1.8 Partagium Final SP1
Developed By Aventure Media & The XMB Group
Processed in 0.0769260 seconds, 21 queries